"Men reject their prophets and slay them..."

[D-Roc]

I always meant to go back to this but theres just been so much to disect these past couple of weeks..anyhoo.

In 'The Whole Truth' [TWT], whilst reading from a book, Henry said [to Jack] 'Men reject their prophets and slay them, but they love their martyrs and honor those whom they have slain.' [now he looks at Jack and says:] "So what's the difference between a martyr and a prophet? "

I find this very interesting and im sure theres plenty of hidden meaning there..especially after watching 'SOS', where we see a scene with Henry tied to the bed..an image which reminds me of a 'crucifixion'...

Now, im not for one minute suggesting that Henry is Jesus..but is there a message in al of this which infers that Henry is in fact a martyr? The word matyr has several meanings but i want to apply this meaning for a minute: 'a witness'. So is Henry a mere witness to the crimes/sins [whatever] of Dharma or Hanso? This would perhaps make him personally innocent of any crime and would also explain why he considers himself to be a 'good person'..? Of course we could apply the other common meaning of the word 'Martyr', which is someone dying for their faith..however, if Henry is Dharma that would surely make him science orietated and therefore would his faith be 'science'? Or perhaps thats a bit naive because Desmond is a scientist yet we see him 'crossing' himself in an earlier episode which means he's also a Christian..and perhaps a dualist [science and faith]? Anyway..amongst all that what im trying to analyse is that perhaps Henry will soon die for his faith..and become a martyr in that way? and if we further analyse the quote [the part about loving martyr and honouring those who have been slain[, will the losties regret his death? [if indeed he does die].

Also, when reading out the quote in the book, Henry mentioned 'Men reject their prphets and slay them', now could we look at this the other way and infer that Henry is in fact a Prophet [a person who tells what will happen in the future]? Is what Henry said about them not giving up Walt true? will he give them other predictions which will come true? Is Henry a prophet in the true sense of the word - is he special? does he have a gift to predict things? Ok, probabaly not seeing as he got caught but im just trying to through ideas out there because i think this is a very interesting aspect which hasnt really been touched upon yet..

Also..could Henry be a prophet AND a martyr? Afterall Jack did say "Either way, it sounds like you end up dead." ..[which i think is very revealing].

And then Henry said this..which is even more revealing imo: "Thats the spirit" ...so basically it's almost as if Henry was denouncing the concept of martyrs and prophets and was seeing whether Jack would agree with his own personal stance? Im starting to wonder whether all that talk of faith [as prophets and martyrs are faith orientated] was baffling to Henry..not in the sense that he doesnt understand the concept but because he [and maybe Dharma or Hanso.F] dont understand why people invest so much time/energy and belief in faith, becuase perhaps in his view it's a waste of time and being a scientist[?] perhaps this is to be the expected stance from someone like Henry? And intriguingly, Jack agreed with him didnt he [about both Martyrs and prophets ending up dead - thus being a futile concept?], therefore does this suggest that Jack [also a man of science] is being groomed or tested by Henry? Could Jack be the type of person they would want on their side?

Hmmmm..

*sorry..that was rather longer than i expected ..any thoughts..is there a hidden message in what Henry said? could i have a point? or am i talking rubbish, lol?* :P

[Kiowa Warrior]

Nice post Roco and some really interesting stuff.

I wouldn't really say that Henry is a prophet, and was perhaps referring to someone he (or others) considered to be a prophet - like 'Him' perhaps.

To quote Wiki - in religion, a prophet is a person who has directly encountered God, of whose intentions he can then speak. Those who are not prophets must then commit themselves to the divinely inspired word as an act of faith.

Perhaps 'He' believed that he had a message/vision sent to him, which was to work towards the betterment of humanity through various experiments (I have Hanso in mind here), and so he convinced others of his vision and helped found Dharma and other companies to carry out these experiments. But then perhaps human vices - greed, arrogance etc - slowly corrupted him, and this transformation trickled down into the rest of his employees, and they subsequently appraoched their experiments with themselves in mind. But not everyone took this view, and so rebelled against Hanso/Dharma (could be The Others, or some of The Others).

'Men reject their prophets and slay them' could mean that men (well the majority of men) are naturally envious of someone superior to them, especially if they are in a position of power all because they have received an important message from someone. Lots of people aren't prepared to put blind faith in things, and after the initial fervent excitment of the prophet's 'revelation' has cooled down, doubts may creep in and they may begin to question if the prophet isn't just a big fraud. These doubts will grow into certainties, and then anger and resentment will follow until the prophet and their teachings are completely rejected. Then, in an attempt to destory their influence, they are slain.

A traditional meaning of the word 'martyr' is someone who dies for their faith, so
perhaps Henry will die (either by 'Him' or by the survivors) for his faith in believing what Dharma/Hanso stood for. Even though he may have rejected his prophet and his teachings, they won't let him go that easily. Maybe he thinks that Dharma/Hanso are so bad that even if he didn't openly rebell against them he would still die a slower death with them, such as from loss of morals, integrity etc.

So yes, I agree with your suggestion that perhaps Henry does consider himself a martyr albit in a twisted sense - he will die for his faith, but not willingly.
...'but they love their martyrs and honor those whom they have slain.'
Perhaps if he sticks with Hanso/Dharma and does all that is asked of him, he will be looked upon more favourably by them after he's dead rather than when he was alive; Dharma can point to Henry as an example to new recruits and say 'that was a good and loyal employee who did everything he could for us,' and put his name up on the wall or something.

Right well I've written more than enough waffle for now, so I will have another think and no doubt come back to this thread!

[D-Roc]

Thanks for contributing to this post Ki

Many interesting thoughts there..i like the idea of Henry [possibly] seeing "him" as his and his people's 'prophet'..that would certainly help explain why he holds him in such high esteem, if not respect/fear?

And im really loving the idea that "him" has had some sort of vision that he has interpreted as a divine message which told him to use science as a way to better man-kind. Thats quite an ironic concept really..that a vision of faith [if you like] would tell someone to use science as a tool. It's also a good point that maybe a group of others rebelled against such plans and split from the main group. I certainly feel that there are at least 2 or 3 rival factions who are waging this 'battle'.

Im thinking back to Jack's response - "eitherway it sounds like you end up dead"..this tells me that Henry will die. If he continues to resist the Losties then Sayid or Jack etc will kill him..and so the 'witness' [another meaning of the word martyr] of Henry Gales murder[?] will die..and if he tells the Losties everything that they want to know then he will perhaps be viewed as a traitor by "him" and his people and so they will "reject" him and perhaps kill him if ever they got the chance. I like your concept of Hanso or Dharma[?] honouring him should he die a martyr at the hand sof the losties though..as he would perhaps be viewed as a model employee by them.

I think one of the key things about this whole HG situation is who he's affiliated with..is it Dharma or is it Hanso.Fnd..or perhaps it's another faction? I think this will tell us alot about his stance.

[The Wizard]

very good points in the first few sentences of these posts, i then couldnt be bothered to read any more, im so sorry :fire:

[D-Roc]

Thread transferred

[Ché]

See I would never have thought about that line twice, I remember it now, but good spot KoRevo!

Originally Posted by KoRevo

I think one of the key things about this whole HG situation is who he's affiliated with..is it Dharma or is it Hanso.Fnd..or perhaps it's another faction? I think this will tell us alot about his stance.

I think you're right there too, it could really go any way couldn't it depending on where he came from. I wish I could write a big long post describing what I'm thinking about it but I can't so I'll leave it as this non-sensical post you could have quite easily done without

[Hooting Heck]

The difference between a prophet and a martyr is 'them' and 'us'.

A martyr is someone who defends your faith; he or she is one of 'us'.
A prophet is someone who brings a new faith, or challenges the old one, making claims to knowledge or understanding from outside of your group; he or she is one of 'them'.

HG is suggesting much the same thing as Locke did: "To Rousseau, we're all Others".
The simplest interpretation is that, to the Others Henry would be a martyr, while to the Losties he'll eventually be a prophet.
Though Henry's actions could in principle be regarded impartially, in reality there's no neutral point of view, and how you judge him just depends on who's side you are on.

Interesting he picked that to ask Jack. Jack was the one who wanted to tool up and go storming into the jungle to take on whoever shot Shannon - until he found out it was Ana Lucia!
Is Henry some kind of mind reader?

[hundredand8]

"Either way you end up dead."

"Thats the spirit"

My feeling is the key to this conversation is in that bit (although I like what HH says in the post above mine).

The way I see it Henry has tried to commit suicide by Sayid, but Ana-Lucia intervened. Now he is trying to commit suice by Locke. Because as an ex-Other (or someone who knows ex-Others) he knows the hatch is real, the button needs to be pushed because he knows about the incident.

You see, Locke has to continue to push the button forever, but he only needs to not push it once to end it all.

[Hooting Heck]

"Either way you end up dead"
"That's the spirit"

You're right, I think. That encapsulates the emotional aspect of what's going on.

"Either way you end up dead" = A neutral observer, an impartial judge, just sees the cold facts of the matter. That is, an archetypal man of science, like Jack.

It's smart stuff, innit?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Ché,Aug 30 2006, 12:49 PM

See I would never have thought about that line twice, I remember it now, but good spot KoRevo!

I think you're right there too, it could really go any way couldn't it depending on where he came from. I wish I could write a big long post describing what I'm thinking about it but I can't so I'll leave it as this non-sensical post you could have quite easily done without

Cheers dude!

Please feel free to add any thoughts that you may have since theres alsways value in every interpretation etc. :niceone:

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Hooting Heck,Aug 30 2006, 15:27 PM

The difference between a prophet and a martyr is 'them' and 'us'.

A martyr is someone who defends your faith; he or she is one of 'us'.
A prophet is someone who brings a new faith, or challenges the old one, making claims to knowledge or understanding from outside of your group; he or she is one of 'them'.

HG is suggesting much the same thing as Locke did: "To Rousseau, we're all Others".
The simplest interpretation is that, to the Others Henry would be a martyr, while to the Losties he'll eventually be a prophet.
Though Henry's actions could in principle be regarded impartially, in reality there's no neutral point of view, and how you judge him just depends on who's side you are on.

Interesting he picked that to ask Jack. Jack was the one who wanted to tool up and go storming into the jungle to take on whoever shot Shannon - until he found out it was Ana Lucia!
Is Henry some kind of mind reader?

Good points the HH :niceone:

I have always believed that what Locke said to Jack is very much true - "It's all relative" [as you inferred] ..so i guess the demarcation line is dependant upon who's side youre on.

You also mentioned whether Henry is a mind reader..thats interesting because another interpretation for the word 'Prophet' is someone who 'predicts' things.. ..So in the very essence it 'could' be argued that Henry is a prophet..again, like you implied, he could be one thing to the losties and another to the Others. Although he [and his people] have probabl been monitoring Jack and co pre-island and so knows his in and outs..

[Hooting Heck]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,August 31, 2006 03:53 pm

You also mentioned whether Henry is a mind reader..thats interesting because another interpretation for the word 'Prophet' is someone who 'predicts' things..

With my Pedantic Knickers on, I have to say that reading minds (telepathy) isn't the same thing as predicting the future (clairvoyance).

Except that if you can read someone's thoughts you could make a good guess what they were about to do or say!

[Snowy~Owl]

I need to read this again and post more as the subject really interests me. I'm a little pushed for time at the moment. However, this topic distinctly calls to mind the original promotional 'one of us' video. "One of us is a Martyr". This still makes me believe that the martyr in all this will be one of the survivors and the prophet will be someone entirely different. If as Kiowa mentioned, a Martyr is someone who dies for their faith, then this could restrict the characters a little. The main ones brought to mind are Mr Eko and Charlie for their religious faith and Locke for his faith in the island. Following on from there Claire has faith in Aaron I suppose and Jack in his will to fix everyone. We could perhaps find some faith for everyone if we looked deep enough. However, for now, I would go with Mr Eko, Charlie or Locke being a Martyr. I will come back to this thread though, as I feel the need to contribute more.

[Hooting Heck]

Doesn't have to be religious, or any kind of faith - could be a 'cause'.

Anyone who spends their life entering the numbers every 108 minutes to 'save the world' could describe themselves as a martyr to it.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Hooting Heck,September 02, 2006 03:39 am

With my Pedantic Knickers on, I have to say that reading minds (telepathy) isn't the same thing as predicting the future (clairvoyance).

Except that if you can read someone's thoughts you could make a good guess what they were about to do or say!

Yeah thats true..i was just commenting on the potential pre-emptive parrallel between the two fields