Polar Bears, Frozen Donkey Wheels & the Mothership

[D-Roc]

The turning of, or rather the 'existence' of, the wheel has certainly openend up as many possibilities as it has wormholes. I like your idea of only making the forward jump to avoid paradoxes, as we have no evidence of anyone going back and forth time..except Desmond, of course. And possibly Alpert.

I still don't think the Polar Bear pushed the wheel however. Why would they need a bear to do what a human (i.e. Ben) can do?

I agree that possibly the moving of the island explains how the BR ended up so far inland (albeit somewhat 'coincidental' in the timing). It's been speculated for a while now and it's certainly seeming more and more likely, although I do still hold out for an alternative/unforseen possibility.

I'm not sure I agree with you Re: Mrs Hawking. Are you saying that she's a 'real person' from the past? I think that she's more of a representative of time (or one 'side' of it)..she possibly appeared in human-form in order for Desmond to understand her. Although Brother Campbell and their picture could suggest otherwise.

I like your take on the Incident. How would you say the "sickness"/"Quarentine" ties into it? An offshot of the high EM exposure?

[Keeping Pace]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Hey Keeping Pace, welcome to the LC!

Very well written piece and an enjoyable read. I certainly agree that the Polar bear we saw in Confirmed Dead arrived in the desert via Dharma's dabbling. But i'm not sold on the idea of them pushing the wheel. It has crossed my mind since the finale, but at this moment in time I cannot picture a massive bear fitting in-between those narrow spokes and pushing/pulling the wheel.

I'm not saying it's not possible..but I just can't see it:


I do agree that the area below the Orhid (where all the exotic matter is) was a different landscape pre-Dharma tampering, and that the Vault was the final seal on the good stuff.

However re: the Polar bear in Tunisia, my opinion is that it arrived there via the Hydra island and some similar yet non-wheel turning excersise. Just like Desmond was able to time travel without turning the wheel below the Orcid, i'm thinking that there is or was another way in which the Poloar bear was sent through space and possibly time.

I think that the wheel was originally put there by an ancient civilisation..possibly what we humans would call 'alien', and Dharma used it as a prototype in a bid to replicate it's time-travelling effects on a far more 'reliable' scale. I also think that the wheel was difficult to turn not because it required 'polar bear strength', but because it was literally frozen in place after years of non-activity

But who knows, perhaps the Polar bear was unwittingly sent to Tunisia by Walt (we know that the Others got "more than they bargained for" when they took him):


His minds-eye has been known do to crazy things before..that coupled with the islands portal to Tunisia and his impressionable mind:



Or perhaps Desmond..


That said, I do like your post..I don't agree with the method of the Polar ending up in the desert, but I do agree on other aspects. I'll catch up with the other parts later

Thanks for such a warm welcome

First off, I believe there were 2 reasons they showed us that the wheel room was frozen. 1 was to make us realize that cold + Ben's bodily time travel = how Charlotte found the polar bear skeleton in Tunsia. The other would be to have us link the freezing of the C4 bomb's battery to prevent it from activating and blowing up the freighter was the same reason why the Island wasn't traveling all over the place all the time... the exotic matter has been on ice, and only works its magic when someone excites the particles (or when DHARMA taps it in small doses).


That said, we've only seen evidence of one polar bear's remains in Tunisia (in the Sahara just outside Medenine, to be exact), so the scenario I picture is that the DI used a polar bear as a guinea pig to turn the wheel when they first came across it so that they could figure out what exactly would happen. While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think anyone of the DHARMA scientists would be volunteering (or even willing) to be a human test subject that turned a wheel linked to some negatively charged exotic matter without having any idea of what it would to them... nor would it be a smart thing to do if you don't know you're not potentially losing whatever intellect that scientist has if anything negative happens (like, say, appearing to vanish, whether transported somewhere unknown or simply seeming to have been vaporized -- even if they somehow figured out the wheel turner was transported, they likely had no way of telling where they would end up).


And while I'm not convinced that the spokes are really as narrowly spaced as people seem to think (since Ben was pretty spread out in trying to use all his body weight to turn the wheel), I think there's a reason we had our attention drawn to the holes in the ends of the spokes... Ben even seemed to want to use them first when he stuck the crowbar in one and tried to turn, as if he knew they'd been used in that capacity before! I think this is the reason (other than for exposition on the part of the storytellers) that Charlotte found a DI Hydra collar at the dig site... Picture a polar bear chained to the wheel thru one of those spoke-holes. No more problem w/ it fitting between the "narrow" gaps between the spokes... Also, I don't think it's conicidental that Darlton chose the term "Frozen Donkey Wheel." Donkey wheels were big devices that either donkeys or horses (the available beasts of burden in Europe's Middle Ages) were used to turn. Some were put in mammoth gerbil wheels which operated drawbridges or waterwheels, but more commonly they were tied to a contraption much like we saw and used to grind grain in mills.


As for there being an alternative way for the polar bear to have wound up out there, the only evidence we have of bodily time travel thus far is thru use of the Vault in the Orchid station (as the second Bunny 15 does in the Orchid blooper video) or by turning the FDW. And the only time we've seen someone go from the Island to Tunisia is by turning the wheel directly, so I think it's a fair assumption to make that if Ben did it that way, then the polar bear was at the source, too. On a related note, it has been pointed out to me that Tunisia is on the exact opposite spot of the globe as an area of the South Pacific, so we could possibly say that our two travelers used a type of wormhole to effectively journey thru the center of the Earth.


Des (and anyone exposed to high EM or other radiation, like Minkowski) only time traveled via their consciousness, and we know from what we saw in The Constant that there was no bodily travel... otherwise we would've had two Des's in the same spot at the same time in both instances (again, much like we had two Bunny 15's in the Orchid blooper vid). All of those people we just "unstuck in time," which stemmed from the Island itself being so after the blowing of the Hatch and the purple sky. If it helps, think of the sky being the lamp in Dan's lab, and the whole Island being Eloise. IMO, Richard is a whole Other case entirely... but I'll get to that in the future installments and leave him be for now.



In regards to Walt, I agree that the Others got more than they bargained for with him. I even go with the basic concept of what you're saying there, but I'll take it in another direction. I believe Walt manifested the polar bear(s) that appeared in Special (in which Michael believes he was pursued by a polar bear, and Walt is cornered in a banyan tree by one before Locke and Michael chase it away). The reason I believe this to be the case is that we have seen a link between Lost and Shakespeare's The Tempest... (even blatantly in the naming of a Tempest DHARMA station). The Tempest is a story in part about the happenings of a shipwreck on a magical Island (complete with spirits and a creature), but if you look further you will see links to Lost in it's adaptions as well. For one, famed Lost director Jack Bender directed a screen version for TV which he set in the time of the Civil War. But even more important is the classic sci-fi movie adaption Forbidden Planet.

In that version, it is the early 2200's and humanity is sending expeditions throughout space. "[T]he United Planets Cruiser C-57D is sent to the planet Altair IV in the Altair star system, sixteen light-years from Earth, to find out what happened to the Bellerophon expedition, sent out some twenty years earlier," and when they get there the crew finds only man left has been residing there with his daughter. The survivor, a Doctor Morbius, is found to have an increased mental capacity (and created the famous Robby the Robot, amongst other things). Morbius tells the crew that he's been there all this time reconstructing the science and history of the Krell, the long-extinct natives of the planet, and that they unexpectedly died out in a single night of mass destruction. The UPC ship is attacked a few times by an invisible monster, and Morbius reveals that the Krell developed technology which allowed them to, quite literally, create anything that they could think of. In the end the crew figures out that the "monster of id" attacking them is a manifestation of the deep, dark thoughts from Morbius's own subconscious mind, and that despite their advanced brains being able to create such a thing, the Krell still had such untamed corners of their own minds, which is how they destroyed themselves.

"Its storyline features many similar themes to Lost: a mysterious location, geographic isolation, immense power sources, ancient civilizations, hidden underground facilities, an invisible monster, a stranded crew of explorers, lost scientific expeditions, and deadly psychic powers."
~ Lostpedia

I take Forbidden Planet to be circumstantial evidence to support my theory because it is the first portrayal of humans piloting flying saucers and the movie is set in the future... and I think the Island is really a crashed human craft from our own space-faring future. Also, there are clear similarities between the special people, apparitions, and the Monster that we've seen on the show and the Monster of Id situation with Morbius and the technology of the Krell. I think the reason we have the group of Losties we do is because they are all special, and that somehow the Island enhances this ability and allows them to manifest or project things from their subconscious minds. This would explain Walt's astral projection of himself and conjuring up the polar bear as I desribed, Kate's horse appearing to her out of nowhere, how many seem real to the touch (Kate petting the horse, Charlie slapping Hurley at Santa Rosa, etc.), and even why counting to 5 can make these things disappear.

In an interview with Lostpedia, David Fury, the writer/director of Special, even points to Forbidden Planet as an inspiration back in Season 1 for the Monster:

Lostpedia: How much of the Monster’s mythology were you made aware of when writing “Walkabout”?

There was no mythology to speak of in place during the early episodes of the series. We were building it as we went along, discussing possibilities. Metaphorically, the Monster was just the great unknown threat, the imminent danger around the corner that potentially haunts us all… Some thought of it as a monster of the id, much like in Forbidden Planet --- that maybe it appeared differently to everyone who saw it. The most tangible thought, as explained later by Rousseau, was that it functioned as a security system set up by the island’s creators/early residents… whatever we later decided the answer was. For Locke, clearly, the monster was the “soul” of the island that was responsible for his “miracle.”

Later on in the interview, he also says that he himself imagined Walt manifested the polar bear:

Lostpedia: Did Walt make the polar bear appear in “Special”?

"I’d certainly like to think so. That was the intent. But then… things have changed since my time."

Going back to the polar bears for just a second, just to be clear: I think that Walt manifested the polar bear in Special with his psychic abilities, but I still believe that DHARMA was responsible for bringing real polar bears to the Island and that one of them turned the FDW... Oh, and one other thing: Hurley's comic book --- the one Walt reads and causes him to project the polar bear --- is another piece of circumstantial evidence in my favor.

Green Lantern and Flash attacked and defeated a crashed alien known as "Alien X", without checking to see if it was hostile. Realizing their mistake, they hid the ship where it could not be found. Alien X, who had developed cancer as a result of testing at a government lab, escaped fifteen years later. It was not a coincidence when the original Green Lantern and Flash disappeared at the same time. Their wives called on the modern Green Lantern and Flash, who found the ship, but it was blown up by Alien X.[..]
~ Lostpedia synopsis

[Keeping Pace]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

The turning of, or rather the 'existence' of, the wheel has certainly openend up as many possibilities as it has wormholes. I like your idea of only making the forward jump to avoid paradoxes, as we have no evidence of anyone going back and forth time..except Desmond, of course. And possibly Alpert.

I still don't think the Polar Bear pushed the wheel however. Why would they need a bear to do what a human (i.e. Ben) can do?

I agree that possibly the moving of the island explains how the BR ended up so far inland (albeit somewhat 'coincidental' in the timing). It's been speculated for a while now and it's certainly seeming more and more likely, although I do still hold out for an alternative/unforseen possibility.

I'm not sure I agree with you Re: Mrs Hawking. Are you saying that she's a 'real person' from the past? I think that she's more of a representative of time (or one 'side' of it)..she possibly appeared in human-form in order for Desmond to understand her. Although Brother Campbell and their picture could suggest otherwise.

I like your take on the Incident. How would you say the "sickness"/"Quarentine" ties into it? An offshot of the high EM exposure?

Ok, D-Roc... Part of this I already answered in my other response to you, so I'll make this one as brief as possible

As I said before, Des only time traveled back and forth via his consciousness, and was not bodily transported because that's only accomplishable w/ the Orchid or direct contact with the exotic matter in the chamber. I don't think Richard is time traveling at all, honestly, because of certain things Darlton has said in the podcasts, and he wouldn't really have a way of getting back to his "present" time without a portable version of the Vault or some exotic matter stashed on his person. I believe he actually is "ageless Alpert," as I will discuss later.

As for Ms. Hawking, yes... I do believe she is an actual person, and not a personification of time or some such thing. I think she is one of the original crew of the ship that crashed back in time on Earth which has become our Island, and that now she is monitoring the timestream to make sure the course of time is correct. There is also mentions by Darlton on the podcasts to which circumstantially support this, pointing to her being a "time cop." Again, more to come on this later.


Also, I'd like to state here, for the record, that I believe the traveling done by the Others which seems to be very timely and without a vehicle (such as Tom Friendly's trip to visit Michael in New York) was probably accomplished by them being sent off-Island via time travel done by using the Vault. I, for one, can't imagine that Ben and some of our key Others would know about the Orchid station and not use it to their advantage.


My, my... I think we might be ready for part 4!

[Matt Gogi]

Edit

[The_abbott]

Polar Bears brain and Bens brain are the same size

but then again the Polar Bear worked the cage out before Sawyer so that means Ben is smarter then Sawyer.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Keeping Pace

Part 3 of 7



With Widmore's comments on how the Island used to be/still is his, I have a sneaking suspicion that either a) he was a joint partner with Hanso, b) was the on-Island manager of the Initiative, or some combination of the two. Either way, since the Island moved and the Purge occurred he’s not been able to find it, until of course he explores the relation to the Black Rock that he somehow knows about. Widmore buys the ship's ledger at the Southfields auction that a consciousness-jarred Desmond witnesses in 1996 (The Constant), and from it he gleans enough about the location to send his motley crew and mercenaries on the Freighter… But not before having successfully planted a staged wreck of Oceanic 815 where he could claim he was searching for the Black Rock: in the Sunda Trench.

I certainly agree with Widmore's ties to Hanso/Dharma. Isn't he a philantropist? Or at least that how Libby described him (if I remember correctly), and so it would seem that he invested heavily in projects, such as those which the Hanso Fnd. and the D.I. were dabbling in. I would even go as far to suggest that Widmore was the person to turn the wheel before Ben - perhaps Ben conned him or double crossed him in someway, meaning that Widmore 'had' to turn the wheel and relinquish the island. This could also explain why he cannot find it, and perhaps why he didn't attend the island search him and why he seemingly has no interest in preserving the island (Keamy was instructed to "torch" it in the 2nd protocol guidlines).

As for the fake wreckage - I still have a sneaky feeling that it was Ben's doing, but of course I accept that it could easily be Widmore. For the same reasons - to divert real-world attention from the survivors and the island.

There ya have it... Polar bears and the Island's tumultuous recent past. But I'd be remiss if I said that's all I thought of TNPLH. In all honesty, I keep returning to that Frozen Donkey Wheel, and those of you who listen to the official podcasts from Darlton know why. In previous seasons Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse (exec producers, writers, and the co-creator/show runner of the show, respectively) gave us the codename of the secret/momentous scene in the finales: "the Bagel" (Season 1), "the Challah" (Season 2), and "the Snake in the Mailbox" (Season 3's mindf*ck of a flash forward reveal). This year's finale, however, they practically handed the moment to us on a silver platter with "the Frozen Donkey Wheel," since that was, quite literally, what we saw used as the device to move the Island. Being the masterminds that they are, and seeing how amazingly genius it was to dare hiding that moment in plain sight, I began to re-evaluate some of the other statements that the dynamic duo have made publicly about LOST to see if anything else jumped out at me. Lo and behold, after seeing all the sci-fi that this show exudes, I have to point to what Darlton have called the series time and time again. Whenever the issue of canonicity has come up, the show itself has been referred to as the “Mothership.”

YES! I like where (I think) you're going with this.

Now, I know what you’re all thinking: the Island being a spaceship was a theory debunked by Damon ages ago. Well, I'll get to the truth of that towards the end, but for now I'll point to the following... Consider for a moment that The Powers That Be initially denied Aaron being a member of the Oceanic 6, leading to wild speculation about who the final member was right up until a promotional clip from ABC revealed him to actually count. The writers and show makers wouldn’t just acknowledge if someone figured out a key element of the series, plain and simple. They’ve said it themselves, and this has been further proven by the fan inspired theories reviewed by Darlton, where the two have picked and rated the speculation of fans not based on accuracy, but rather imagination. (Just look up “What is the Smoke Monster?” on Yahoo Answers and see who they picked out of 8,000 some-odd results, as well as their own comments on the matter… not to mention their more recent U.S. Weekly theory ratings.)

They certainly give themselves scope for mannoeuvre don't they!

In this latest installment of the show, Locke specifically said “It isn’t an Island…” to Jack. And though John may not know what it truly is (yet), or simply have called it “a place where miracles happen,” I bet he’s right about that first bit. Which brings us back to the Mothership. If the “Island” is really an spaceship which crashed on Earth in ancient, possibly even prehistoric times, that would explain quite a lot, to tell the truth. All the earthly vegetation and such could have built up on it from being derelict for so long, effectively masking the ship as the Island we’ve come to know and love. It would allow for various cultures [read: the Hostiles/Others] to have come across it and made it their home or some holy site, which would account for what appears to be the ancient evidence of human culture: the Ruins, the door to Ben’s Smokey-Summoning Chamber, and perhaps even the Temple and Four-toed Statue).

Let me just say that I really like this..I might not agree with it entirely, but let's just say that our thought patterns are from the same galaxy, if not the same planet. That is, I don't think that the island is a 'spaceship', rather the thing which sparked it possibily came from outer-space. I'm thinking more along the lines of the island being a hybrid..with an 'alien' organism of somekind crashing on to the (rather normal) island in a kind of 'big-bang' theory kind of way.

That said, I certainly agree with the ancient civilisation take on it..whether the island is/was and actual spacecraft or whether it's actually a hybrid (part alien, part earth).

And as it was so astutely pointed out to me, Darlton, when pressed for the location of the series ending, said “Somewhere just outside the Crab Nebula is where it will all end, geographically.” (The Crab Nebula, incidentally, seems to tie into some recent themes and characters of Lost… most notably in the form of Rudolf Minkowski — nephew of the space-time theorist Hermann Minkowski who our George was a nod to — discovering the star responsible for the nebula and noting that it had an extremely unusual optical spectrum, an observation eerily reminiscent of Daniel Faraday’s comment: “The light here… It just doesn’t scatter quite right, does it?”). More importantly, though, a spaceship would give precedence for (if not explain) much of the otherworldly things like the electromagnetism and time travel-causing negatively charged exotic matter.

That's certainly interesting and it does support your (and my) argument in terms of the island being either a spaceship or a hybrid of somekind.

I dunno about the rest of you, but Ben cranking that wheel definitely sounded like it started something like turbines to me... and I couldn't help but remember most ships on Star Trek use "anti-matter" in their warp nacels to achieve faster-than-light travel). Can you say propulsion system? And don’t even try to deny that the smoke monster has been acting very similarly to the alien(s) of the “The Abyss” — (for those who don’t know, in the movie there was an alien made out of what seemed to be a column of water that began to mimic human form when one of the characters touched it, which afterward projected images of humanity’s barbarism to a hero in his final moments and then reanimated him for sacrificing himself to save its kind. Change the water to smoke. Sound familiar?) Jacob could even possibly be the last surviving member of the original crew suffering the time-ravaging affects of the crash, or maybe the ship’s malfunctioning AI navigation; a holographic representation (in human form) that’s actually the ship's systems. Comparisons with Rommie from TV’s “Andromeda” come to mind, though Lexa Doig is much more fetching than our ghostly cabin misanthrope.

There's certainly alot of 'pop-culture' references thrown in there, and so I agree that the creators could be harking back to inspirations from their own TV heydeys, and in doing so they could be revealing some of their hand in regards to the alien/space origins of the island.

I should also add that the sound of the wheel turning (or rather the anti-matter or EM that it was charging also reminded me very much of the hatch implosion which follwed Desmond's turning of the key. Obviously similar things happened from both turns..

Interesting thoughts on Jacob there! My first theory on ihm (now seemingly debunked..or perhaps not..) was that he was a computer (this was before we had seen him etc)..but perhaps your thoughts on him beiing A.I. could salvage this notion? Anyway, some good ideas there..I've also began to think that perhaps Jacob pre-dates Dharma..after all, doesn't Mittelos? Not sure how important this might be, but if we're trying to decipher the origins of the island, it might give us potential clues.

My thought is that the ship is from far into our own human future

— so far in the future that it seems alien — in which case Ms. Hawking and the other enforcers of time are the people responsible for the Island, explaining and giving credence to her cryptic words to Desmond: “If you don’t [push that button], all of us are dead.”

Aha, so you're also going with the time-loop idea - an aspect of LOST which i fully endorse. It's certainly interesting to look at loops (or would you deem this time-travel?) in this way. What was it Faraday said about time and 'perspective'? The same could apply here, because as you say - something from our own future could appear 'alien' to us...indeed, so much so that it actually appears 'normal' to others, like Jack, who continue to deny the magnificence of "the place where miracles happen"

Take of this what you will, but rest assured that at very least the polar bears are a mystery solved, and be confident in the knowledge that DHARMA moved the Island to the Black Rock’s location, which Widmore used to track it down in the South Pacific. Whether you believe the rest of this and buy into a future human explanation, one thing is certain:

We now know that many of the mystical and mythical elements of the show come from the bowels of the Island. The electromagnetism emanating from beneath the Swan, exotic matter far below the Orchid, and the tunnels/vents that are used to summon/release Smokey are all deep, dark secrets indicating that, if nothing else, the knowledge of what we’re dealing with will only be revealed by either taking a leap of faith or digging for answers...



Continued in Part 4...

Again, i'm not so sure re: the Polar bears being a mystery which is "solved". Having bears push the wheel seems to lack the credibility that the show usually produces. Not saying your theory lacks credibility because I fully appreciate the ideas and support for those ideas that you have provided..but something just doesn't seem right re the bears, as I've stated in previous posts. But I digress!

I could certainly buy the suggestion for the BR ending up on the island.

I love the 'leap of faith', 'digging for answer' bit - very nice touch.

[Toby]

"whats the runway for?"

Juliete: "the aliens".

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Keeping Pace

Thanks for such a warm welcome

No probs

First off, I believe there were 2 reasons they showed us that the wheel room was frozen. 1 was to make us realize that cold + Ben's bodily time travel = how Charlotte found the polar bear skeleton in Tunsia. The other would be to have us link the freezing of the C4 bomb's battery to prevent it from activating and blowing up the freighter was the same reason why the Island wasn't traveling all over the place all the time... the exotic matter has been on ice, and only works its magic when someone excites the particles (or when DHARMA taps it in small doses).

I do agree with your reasons for why they showed us that the wheel was frozen and i'm not disputing that the Polar Bear could have travelled from this area of the island (Where the exotic matter is), but I don't feel that the PB need to have pushed the wheel to have travelled to Tunisia.

We also have to reconcile the fact that the Polar Bears are on the island - a tropical island - now how did the Polar Bears get to the island? Could they have been sent their via a similar mechanism elsewhere on the world..and what about thNigerian Beach Craft - how did that get to the island? What i'm trying to suggest, is that also we've seen Ben pushing the wheel to travel to Tunisia, there are surely other methods/mechanisms (wormholes..portals?) that exist elsewhere in the world, and possible on the island. Granted, the PB is in Tunisia..the same place where Ben ends up, but one would also assume that the Black Rock and the Beach Craft came from different places in the world, yet both ended up in the same place (the island). I would just like to leave room for the PB not 'having' to have pushed the wheel to have ended up in a similar worm-hole deposit as Ben. However, I certainly don't rule out your premise.

The C4 bomb is a good analogy, and I take that on-board as I also look for parallels within Lost plot-arcs.

That said, we've only seen evidence of one polar bear's remains in Tunisia (in the Sahara just outside Medenine, to be exact), so the scenario I picture is that the DI used a polar bear as a guinea pig to turn the wheel when they first came across it so that they could figure out what exactly would happen. While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think anyone of the DHARMA scientists would be volunteering (or even willing) to be a human test subject that turned a wheel linked to some negatively charged exotic matter without having any idea of what it would to them... nor would it be a smart thing to do if you don't know you're not potentially losing whatever intellect that scientist has if anything negative happens (like, say, appearing to vanish, whether transported somewhere unknown or simply seeming to have been vaporized -- even if they somehow figured out the wheel turner was transported, they likely had no way of telling where they would end up).

Hmm, I see what you're saying, but i'm struggling to see 'why' they would send a Polar Bear through the portal by turning the wheel? Surely Dharma could have rigged up some mechanism whereby the wheel is turned via a mechanical lever or something? Also, if Dharma stumbled upon the wheel, how would they know the dangers that came with it (i.e space-time travel)? Surely they would turn it themselves before having the mindset to bring a bear down to the wheel and have it turn it for them? Also, why use a bear..why not use an animal more closely aligned to humans? Like I said, to turn the wheel Dharma need not use physical man/bear-power..they could have set up some sort of wheel turning mechamism, and thrown a rabbit through the wall when the particles charged up.

Another thing which narks me, is how Dharma would expect to know what happened to the bear? If they send a bear through the wall, then they would have no way of knowing what would become of it, so it seems like a pretty pointless excercise on their part?

Also, these Dharmafolks where willing to die for their science (from what I understand), so wouldn't their be at least a few volunteers? Who knows, perhaps that's how Marvin Candle lost his arm

Again, I don't discount your notion - I just feel that it can be challenged on some areas, and I have to maintain that by sending a PB through the wall, the D.I. had no way of knowing what happened to it or where it went..it would be fruitless, surely?

We should also bear in mind that this method of time-travel 'moves the island', which according to Ben is "a measure of last resort". Now how many times would Dharma have had to move the island in order to perform their "silly experiments"? Would it not be more economical of them to try to replicate this time-travel technique rather than sending PB's through the wall and potentially risking a tear in the space-time mechanism? By sending a PB, they would be sending a creature without human consciousness..a case study that wouldn't be able to report back to them or get back to the island to tell them what happens and where it ended up - as the person (bear) who moves the island, "can never return".

And while I'm not convinced that the spokes are really as narrowly spaced as people seem to think (since Ben was pretty spread out in trying to use all his body weight to turn the wheel), I think there's a reason we had our attention drawn to the holes in the ends of the spokes... Ben even seemed to want to use them first when he stuck the crowbar in one and tried to turn, as if he knew they'd been used in that capacity before! I think this is the reason (other than for exposition on the part of the storytellers) that Charlotte found a DI Hydra collar at the dig site... Picture a polar bear chained to the wheel thru one of those spoke-holes. No more problem w/ it fitting between the "narrow" gaps between the spokes... Also, I don't think it's conicidental that Darlton chose the term "Frozen Donkey Wheel." Donkey wheels were big devices that either donkeys or horses (the available beasts of burden in Europe's Middle Ages) were used to turn. Some were put in mammoth gerbil wheels which operated drawbridges or waterwheels, but more commonly they were tied to a contraption much like we saw and used to grind grain in mills.

Good point about Ben using the holes in the wheel with the crowbar - although those could be there because it is literally a donkey wheel which was installed by the "natives" or whoever from many an age ago, and that's just how it is. I don't think it necessarily means that the D.I. use the bears to turn the wheel. Whatsmore, if the bears where tied to the wheel, then surely this would mean they would be 'pulling' the wheel and not standing on their hindlegs and 'pushing' the wheel - which I would be more inclined to believe. I think the idea of the PB's 'pulling' the wheel (hence the collar) is less likely than the PB's 'pushing' the wheel, as there was not enough space in-between the spokes for them to pull that half wheel..it wasn't big enough to merit it being pulled, in my opinion. The PB's size and the lenth of the collar doesn't reconcile with the gap in-between the spokes.

As for there being an alternative way for the polar bear to have wound up out there, the only evidence we have of bodily time travel thus far is thru use of the Vault in the Orchid station (as the second Bunny 15 does in the Orchid blooper video) or by turning the FDW. And the only time we've seen someone go from the Island to Tunisia is by turning the wheel directly, so I think it's a fair assumption to make that if Ben did it that way, then the polar bear was at the source, too. On a related note, it has been pointed out to me that Tunisia is on the exact opposite spot of the globe as an area of the South Pacific, so we could possibly say that our two travelers used a type of wormhole to effectively journey thru the center of the Earth.

I agree with Tunia being 'a' destination from the source (the island), representing the end of 'one' wormhole. But I think that there are also other 'wormholes' with other 'sources' and 'destinations'. Isaac spoke of their being other 'places' in the world which has this energy, I think that the island is one of them, but there could be others and there could be more than one island wormhole that exists.

Granted, Ben came from a cold place and PB's reside in cold places..but seeing as the PB's are/were able to live on the island (a tropical island noless), then we could also assume that the PB need not have arrived in Tunisia from the cold section beneath the Vault.

Infact, we know that other wormholes exist, the plane came from West Africa (and flew south) - already that's a completely different wormhole right there. Is it not possible that the bear could have arrived from another part of the island, or from another Dharma island completely, or at the very least, that it didn't have to push the wheel to get to North Africa?

Des (and anyone exposed to high EM or other radiation, like Minkowski) only time traveled via their consciousness, and we know from what we saw in The Constant that there was no bodily travel... otherwise we would've had two Des's in the same spot at the same time in both instances (again, much like we had two Bunny 15's in the Orchid blooper vid). All of those people we just "unstuck in time," which stemmed from the Island itself being so after the blowing of the Hatch and the purple sky. If it helps, think of the sky being the lamp in Dan's lab, and the whole Island being Eloise. IMO, Richard is a whole Other case entirely... but I'll get to that in the future installments and leave him be for now.

Indeed, but i'm not sure we would have had two Desmond's in the same place at the same time - this would only have happened if he arrived on a different time-line (Universe) from which he had originally lived, hence causing a major paradox.

Although that said we could indeed have the premise that one cannot phsically travel back in time..and that one is only able to travel forward in time physically (and consciously), but not with consciousness on it's own (again - paradox?). so yeah, i'm pretty open to the boundaries and possibilities of time-travel, but I don't think we have a definitive answer on what is..or rather, what isn't possible.

As for Richard - I agree that he might not have time-travelled back to see Locke as a child..it may well have been 'real-time' interaction, however I certainly don't think it can be ruled out..not until we have proof eitherway.

In regards to Walt, I agree that the Others got more than they bargained for with him. I even go with the basic concept of what you're saying there, but I'll take it in another direction. I believe Walt manifested the polar bear(s) that appeared in Special (in which Michael believes he was pursued by a polar bear, and Walt is cornered in a banyan tree by one before Locke and Michael chase it away). The reason I believe this to be the case is that we have seen a link between Lost and Shakespeare's The Tempest... (even blatantly in the naming of a Tempest DHARMA station). The Tempest is a story in part about the happenings of a shipwreck on a magical Island (complete with spirits and a creature), but if you look further you will see links to Lost in it's adaptions as well. For one, famed Lost director Jack Bender directed a screen version for TV which he set in the time of the Civil War. But even more important is the classic sci-fi movie adaption Forbidden Planet.

Oh, I certainly agree that Walt manifested the PB in special - indeed, that was why I posted the screencap of the PB in the comic book - Walt's mind is/was very impressionale and powerful beyond his knowledge (ala the bird crashing into the window whilst he was reading a book in birds).

What I was trying to suggest (or put forward) is that things can also appear in locations by others means than wheel-pushing or electromagnetic charging. Walt (and to a degree, Hurley) have both proven that time and space has far more possibilities than we could ever have imagined.

Nice Forbidden Planet reference.

In that version, it is the early 2200's and humanity is sending expeditions throughout space. "[T]he United Planets Cruiser C-57D is sent to the planet Altair IV in the Altair star system, sixteen light-years from Earth, to find out what happened to the Bellerophon expedition, sent out some twenty years earlier," and when they get there the crew finds only man left has been residing there with his daughter. The survivor, a Doctor Morbius, is found to have an increased mental capacity (and created the famous Robby the Robot, amongst other things). Morbius tells the crew that he's been there all this time reconstructing the science and history of the Krell, the long-extinct natives of the planet, and that they unexpectedly died out in a single night of mass destruction. The UPC ship is attacked a few times by an invisible monster, and Morbius reveals that the Krell developed technology which allowed them to, quite literally, create anything that they could think of. In the end the crew figures out that the "monster of id" attacking them is a manifestation of the deep, dark thoughts from Morbius's own subconscious mind, and that despite their advanced brains being able to create such a thing, the Krell still had such untamed corners of their own minds, which is how they destroyed themselves.


I take Forbidden Planet to be circumstantial evidence to support my theory because it is the first portrayal of humans piloting flying saucers and the movie is set in the future... and I think the Island is really a crashed human craft from our own space-faring future. Also, there are clear similarities between the special people, apparitions, and the Monster that we've seen on the show and the Monster of Id situation with Morbius and the technology of the Krell. I think the reason we have the group of Losties we do is because they are all special, and that somehow the Island enhances this ability and allows them to manifest or project things from their subconscious minds. This would explain Walt's astral projection of himself and conjuring up the polar bear as I desribed, Kate's horse appearing to her out of nowhere, how many seem real to the touch (Kate petting the horse, Charlie slapping Hurley at Santa Rosa, etc.), and even why counting to 5 can make these things disappear.

I agree with the fundemental notion that we could be dealing with 'time' in this way, but I would disagree that the island itself is a spaceship - rather I believe it to be a hybrid - a non-human entity which perhaps crashed on earth many millenia ago (although time is relative)..or perhaps we crashed on it - taking Locke's "the island brought US here" literally.

I do agree that the Losties are special, only Jack would deny that at this stage. Actually, not even Jack is denying it at this stage

I'm not sure you've actually explained or nailed down why all of the manifestations/astral projections etc are possible though? I agree, that the island heightens peoples abilities and makes all kind of things possible, but are you saying that this is advanced science made possible by future humans? I just want to be clear so that I can extend my opinions with more accuracy

In an interview with Lostpedia, David Fury, the writer/director of Special, even points to Forbidden Planet as an inspiration back in Season 1 for the Monster:

Later on in the interview, he also says that he himself imagined Walt manifested the polar bear:

Going back to the polar bears for just a second, just to be clear: I think that Walt manifested the polar bear in Special with his psychic abilities, but I still believe that DHARMA was responsible for bringing real polar bears to the Island and that one of them turned the FDW... Oh, and one other thing: Hurley's comic book --- the one Walt reads and causes him to project the polar bear --- is another piece of circumstantial evidence in my favor.

I agree with the Walt/minds-eye thing - I always have, so we're definetely in the same sphere of thinking here. It's just that we seem disparate in our fundemental opinions on the root/direction of some of these premises.

No doubt Dharma brought the bears to the island - although they might not have seeings the island has a rich and active history or civilisation.

I still cannot agree that the PB turned the wheel - I can buy astral projections and other out-there notions presented by the show, but having a PB push a wheel doesn't seem inkeeping with best scientific practices, seeing as the PB wouldn't be able to report back to them what happened, nor would they know what happened to the bear..only that it 'went'..'somewhere'..

Also, what if the bear didn't feel like pushing the wheel? What would motivate it to push the wheel in the first place..how would it know what a half wheel was intended for? Perhaps i'm doing the bears a dis-service here, but then again, perhaps i'm crediting them for being more intelligent than to push a wheel like a circus animal. I just don't think we'll ever see a bear pushing that half-wheel - i mean, how would they show it without losing credibility and having greenpeace on their case? It would be worse than the CGI bear that they gave us in Further Instructions.

I also referenced the comic book above, and i'm not sure it is in your favour - in what way does it support your argument? I agree that Walt manifested the PB because he saw one in the comic book, but surely this supports my stance that there is more than one way for something to travel (manifest) through time and space?