Ben controlling Fate

[Reed]

After seeing the episode where Jules sees her Sister on the monitor at the Flame I thought about the possiblity that Ben is "controlling" Fate through Jacob.

Ben said he would go to see Jacob to cure Rachel's Cancer and I would presume Jacob could achieve this because he is the Master of Fate or something like that?

Ben is very sly in his statements, his lies are not always lies and vice-versa. "Two weeks ago I found out I had a tumour on my spine and then a spinal surgeon fell out of the Sky" - well did Ben ask Jacob for a spinal surgeon?

Jules cried "all the women are dying" and Ben theorised there may be Mothers on the plane. Did he know a Mother would be on the plane? Jacob prevents any of Claire's pens from working at the adoption agency, controlling Fate until Claire boarded the plane?

Ben is 'screwing' with Jacob's plans and messing with the Universe' plans and Jacob needs someone's "help" to be freed from Ben's controlling of Fate.

Fast forward to Sayid's FF. Ben is obviously aware the O6 are in danger and he is preventing events through the workings of a Hitman. Strike before being struck. Why on Earth does Ben care about Sayid's friends unless Ben has something to gain? Not as off-topic as you may think.

With theories about Freewill and Fate, one could theorise that Ben is playing a long game of Chess, even to this day - i.e. he tries his might to change people's 'actions/motives' [the pieces] but ultimately he cannot force them as he moves in for Checkmate - his objective. Perhaps Jacob can only help so much - he 'sets' the board and Ben plays? It would explain why he manipulates people.

Of course you could ask why is Ben currently the loser [on Sawyer's leash at present and about to be captured by the Freighters] if he can control Fate? Well perhaps it is not as easy as it sounds and Fate begins to "Course Correct" itself in spite of Ben's meddling.

I could probably think of more examples to support the theory but hopefully I have made a good case thus far.

[Murgatroyd]

I broadly agree with that hypothesis, yes. Basically, there has to be some kind of sentient force engineering these occurances because coincidence alone will never provide a satisfactory or believable explanation: the presence of people with close links in their pasts (such as Locke and Sawyer; Jack and Claire), Hurley's being dogged by the numbers and finally arriving on this island where they apparently have such significance, let alone Jack's arriving when Ben needed him most and the appearance of Cooper on the island (though perhaps that can be more easily explained now that we know Ben has means to leave the island - then again, it was after the sky went purple) ... purely for audience satisfactions, these things have to have an explanation beyond 'it's a coincidence'. And I think the idea that the island/Jacob is serving Ben's or other people's needs - or not when it so chooses - is the most plausible.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

I broadly agree with that hypothesis, yes. Basically, there has to be some kind of sentient force engineering these occurances because coincidence alone will never provide a satisfactory or believable explanation: the presence of people with close links in their pasts (such as Locke and Sawyer; Jack and Claire), Hurley's being dogged by the numbers and finally arriving on this island where they apparently have such significance, let alone Jack's arriving when Ben needed him most and the appearance of Cooper on the island (though perhaps that can be more easily explained now that we know Ben has means to leave the island - then again, it was after the sky went purple) ... purely for audience satisfactions, these things have to have an explanation beyond 'it's a coincidence'. And I think the idea that the island/Jacob is serving Ben's or other people's needs - or not when it so chooses - is the most plausible.

I agree with all of this, and I would doubt the producers would ever give us the "coincidence" ploy.

Though why the Survivors are "connected" is beyond me as obviously it has to be more complicated than Ben requesting Mothers and a spinal surgeon as said connections have lasted many years.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Interesting stuff. I like the idea that there's two forces at work - I always have..

Maybe fate brought all these people to the Island because - pre-island - they had somehow managed to step outside of fates plan (off the top of my head; Hugo with the numbers, Jack fixing Sarah, Kate killing her mother etc) and so - as a kind of 'course correcting', fate brought them all to the Island.

Perhaps the Island is the only place on the planet where people truly have control of their own destiny, where they aren't restricted to what they can and can't do and they actually have the ability to do miraculous things - if one only believes in it (kind of like Neverland? Ummm..). I'm not talking about thinking someone into existence or whatever, but more like: say you ran a race - fate may have already predetermined the outcome. Maybe the Island doesn't have that restriction...

I've also believed that we'll eventually see something in a flashback that starts every ones chain of events - a single moment that can be traced back, that explains why they're all on the Island; like a domino effect.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

Interesting stuff. I like the idea that there's two forces at work - I always have..

Maybe fate brought all these people to the Island because - pre-island - they had somehow managed to step outside of fates plan (off the top of my head; Hugo with the numbers, Jack fixing Sarah, Kate killing her mother etc) and so - as a kind of 'course correcting', fate brought them all to the Island.

Perhaps the Island is the only place on the planet where people truly have control of their own destiny, where they aren't restricted to what they can and can't do and they actually have the ability to do miraculous things - if one only believes in it (kind of like Neverland? Ummm..). I'm not talking about thinking someone into existence or whatever, but more like: say you ran a race - fate may have already predetermined the outcome. Maybe the Island doesn't have that restriction...

I've also believed that we'll eventually see something in a flashback that starts every ones chain of events - a single moment that can be traced back, that explains why they're all on the Island; like a domino effect.

Good points - though Kate's Mum had Cancer [I thought] and as of this moment had not died. Though one would think it would take something out of the box [i.e. Desmond-esque] to change Fate, though I would agree with Hurley because he used the Numbers - which are apparantly magical or something.

While Desmond's interaction with Jack changed Fate, which is supported by the fact Desmond "time travelled" BEFORE they met. Depends on what you believe in regard to that last bit as it is rather confusing.

But it is interesting that such indirect meddling caused their bringing to the Island.

It would be nice to think the Island is not the norm. A place where people can change their Destiny simply by being on though that brings into question the fact people can presumably change their paths anytime they like, ON or OFF the Island.

But what makes the Island special in this instance is, as you say, being able to do 'miraclous' things. Locke's belief in the Island has seemingly brought him some 'purpose'. One thing to question your idea is obviously Charlie's death being set in stone on the Island.

That would be brilliant to see re: the 'first step in the chain'. Though I have a feeling that would be saved for the very end. What if Hurley's "incident" caused all of their connections, for example?

[E Pluribus Unum]

Sorry, I meant Kate killing her father. Not her mother. Although I suppose you could argue Kates mum didn't have anything or anyone to fight for. Maybe if she'd had her daughter or the man she loved by her side she would have survived (I think she did die?!)

Charlie's death is an interesting one. Sure, Desmond saw him die (several times) - but in the end it was Charlie who choose to sacrifice himself. Perhaps the 'entity' that was trying to kill Charlie was the same one that Ben/Locke seem so invested in; it wanted Charlie did so he couldn't open the comms (him being the only one able to..) But then, that means something was giving Desmond the visions - the opposing entity - so that he could keep Charlie alive long enough to open comms..

Hmmm

[Reed]

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

Sorry, I meant Kate killing her father. Not her mother. Although I suppose you could argue Kates mum didn't have anything or anyone to fight for. Maybe if she'd had her daughter or the man she loved by her side she would have survived (I think she did die?!)

Charlie's death is an interesting one. Sure, Desmond saw him die (several times) - but in the end it was Charlie who choose to sacrifice himself. Perhaps the 'entity' that was trying to kill Charlie was the same one that Ben/Locke seem so invested in; it wanted Charlie did so he couldn't open the comms (him being the only one able to..) But then, that means something was giving Desmond the visions - the opposing entity - so that he could keep Charlie alive long enough to open comms..

Hmmm

Oh I see, but Kate killing her Father was not necessarily "out of the lines" i.e. not anything out of the ordinary when compared to the other examples you made. Nor killing her Mother for that matter, unless of course either event incurred abnormal circumstances - if that makes sense. I would have thought she died shortly thereafter; she looked VERY ill.

Perhaps in the real world Desmond would not have been able to fight Fate; in turn supporting your idea. Interesting idea re: the Comms. It makes sense, though I think there is more to this 'entity' that intrigues Locke/Ben than the Charlie incident. Perhaps Desmond's time-travel was not the result of an opposing entity but it would be interesting if that was the case.

[D-Roc]

Interesting stuff Reed. I'll come back to this.

[Lostmaniac]

yo that is a really good thinking

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Reed

After seeing the episode where Jules sees her Sister on the monitor at the Flame I thought about the possiblity that Ben is "controlling" Fate through Jacob.

Ben said he would go to see Jacob to cure Rachel's Cancer and I would presume Jacob could achieve this because he is the Master of Fate or something like that?

Ben is very sly in his statements, his lies are not always lies and vice-versa. "Two weeks ago I found out I had a tumour on my spine and then a spinal surgeon fell out of the Sky" - well did Ben ask Jacob for a spinal surgeon?

Jules cried "all the women are dying" and Ben theorised there may be Mothers on the plane. Did he know a Mother would be on the plane? Jacob prevents any of Claire's pens from working at the adoption agency, controlling Fate until Claire boarded the plane?

Ben is 'screwing' with Jacob's plans and messing with the Universe' plans and Jacob needs someone's "help" to be freed from Ben's controlling of Fate.

Fast forward to Sayid's FF. Ben is obviously aware the O6 are in danger and he is preventing events through the workings of a Hitman. Strike before being struck. Why on Earth does Ben care about Sayid's friends unless Ben has something to gain? Not as off-topic as you may think.

With theories about Freewill and Fate, one could theorise that Ben is playing a long game of Chess, even to this day - i.e. he tries his might to change people's 'actions/motives' [the pieces] but ultimately he cannot force them as he moves in for Checkmate - his objective. Perhaps Jacob can only help so much - he 'sets' the board and Ben plays? It would explain why he manipulates people.

Of course you could ask why is Ben currently the loser [on Sawyer's leash at present and about to be captured by the Freighters] if he can control Fate? Well perhaps it is not as easy as it sounds and Fate begins to "Course Correct" itself in spite of Ben's meddling.

I could probably think of more examples to support the theory but hopefully I have made a good case thus far.

I can relate to this theory, as it fits in with my ideas about the "magic box" and even the idea of Ben having 'flashes' (although that's perhaps a reach).

My personaly view is that Ben is doing a good thing by keeping Jacob where he's at. Although this can be argued either way to death.

I strongly believe in the idea that there are things that people are "supposed" and "Not supposed" to do - I've stressed this for many months now, and so I agree that Ben is playing a long game, if you will.

We can look at his off island affairs, to his getting caught by Rousseau on purpose (spec), to his messing with Locke's mind etc etc. It's all part of Ben's plan for his 'end game'. Whilst I do also believe that Ben is able to think on his feet to realign his game plan when he needs to.

As you allude, this is a game which cannot be 'forced' on people..freewill, or the illusion of freewill is at the heart of this battle - hence Ben's:

"I want you to WANT to save me" (words to the affect of)..and other such speeches.