Jack Shepherd: Dying to Live?

[D-Roc]

There have been several interesting threads of late which delve into the issue of dreams, visions and such on the island.

I want to look at a specific moment in LOST and ask whether or not there is any possible underlying link to the above.

In "Through the Looking Glass" we see a dischelved and defeated Jack about to commit suicide by leaping off a bridge. I wonder whether a small part of him didn't hope that by doing this he would be able to return to the island?

We know that the island is capable of 'magic boxing' peoples hopes and dreams (perhaps even negative ones), we also know that Jack has a connection with the island, however small. Importantly we also know that the island is capable of ressurecting the dead to invade it's residents dreams and subconscious. We've seen this happen with Emily, Yemi, Duckett (all of whom died 'off'-island), Boone, Ana-Lucia..and 'possibly' Walt.

All of these people (with the possible exception of Walt) are dead..and yet they have resurfaced on the island to guide and perhaps block the paths of some of our losties. Whilst I don't think that these visions are the actual people they once were (rather the island inhabiting them) they still act according to the 'surface' traits and beliefs that they had when they were alive - this can most easily be seen in terms of Yemi and Boone, imo.

So, what I'm wondering is if Jack had died, would HE have returned to the island in this way? Did a small part of him 'hope' that this would be the case..that if he died he would return to the island in the form of a vision? Did he hope that this was he could "go back" and help whoever he left behind (speculation) or to fix whatever he helped to break?

Did Jack hope to return 'through the looking glass' by dying?

[Toby]

This connects straight to Lockes Dad, when he says about "I was driving down the freeway, and everything blacked out - next thing I know Im here" ! So, if he died and returned to the island, bingo.

This would also explain how the plane crashed somewhere else but they all ended up on the island, almost completely unscathed by a massive plane crash.

Food for thought!

[The Wizard]

Originally Posted by Toby

This would also explain how the plane crashed somewhere else but they all ended up on the island, almost completely unscathed by a massive plane crash.

Food for thought!

But then why would the plane crash there with them?

[lost-lover]

If the palbne really did crash somewhere else and they ended up on the island maybe the island stimulated a plane crash as an explanation to the survivors for how they arrived on the island?

[The Wizard]

Originally Posted by lost-lover

If the palbne really did crash somewhere else and they ended up on the island maybe the island stimulated a plane crash as an explanation to the survivors for how they arrived on the island?

Now this is just becoming absurd

[lost-lover]

Now that I've read through that it doesn't make a lot of sense. It did in my head. Oh well I'm having a bad day.

[Kiowa Warrior]

I think that Jack was just at the end with everything that had happened to him and wanted a way out which was why he nearly jumped off the bridge. Apart from seeing Christian Jack hasn't really had much contact with the dead people/visions/whispers etc. on the island - Christian didn't even talk to him on it - and as far as I can remember he hasn't taken much interest in exploring such a vision further. To be honest I don't think that Jack would even think of making a connection between dying and ending up on the island! If he had then that may have given him the extra push to take the jump, but I'm not sure!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Toby

This connects straight to Lockes Dad, when he says about "I was driving down the freeway, and everything blacked out - next thing I know Im here" ! So, if he died and returned to the island, bingo.

Good spot!
Although I personally believe that he was either 'magic boxed' to the island (see Locke's deep rooted 'desire' to rid himself of his father..just like Desmond's deep rooted desire to be with Penny *re his time-travelling* - both opportunities presented themselves)..or that he was brought to the island by Mittelos (perhaps as a pre-emptive measure?).

Also I'm not sure that Cooper was ever on the island, so I'm not sure that he 'returned' as such. I also don't think that the Cooper we saw was 'dead', whereas Emily Linus was (imo).

So basically it's a good shout, but I think that if Jack were to die..then he could only return to the island as an island-controlled vision or dream (ala Yemi, Emily, Boone etc)

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior

I think that Jack was just at the end with everything that had happened to him and wanted a way out which was why he nearly jumped off the bridge. Apart from seeing Christian Jack hasn't really had much contact with the dead people/visions/whispers etc. on the island - Christian didn't even talk to him on it - and as far as I can remember he hasn't taken much interest in exploring such a vision further. To be honest I don't think that Jack would even think of making a connection between dying and ending up on the island! If he had then that may have given him the extra push to take the jump, but I'm not sure!

You're right, the Jack we knew wasn't really in to exploring the depths of the visions or anything intangible (although his father did appear to speak to him on the Hydra's intercom). However that was island Jack - I think it's apparent that post island Jack has changed somewhat..he's seeking answers, he's popping pills (his version of Locke's Wacky paste), and he's even grown a beard! Seriously though I think it's possible that post-island Jack is more 'open' to the idea of 'the power of dreams'..I bet post-island Jack is now more open to following possible signs and such ..Maybe he's even had a visitation that we don't know about? Alot could've happened between him making that call and him calling Kate, begging her to go back with him.

Of course, I do believe that the main suggestion with his suicide attempt is that he had given up (as you say), however I just wonder whether a small part of him believed that death is the new living? Perhaps the writers aren't even trying to incinuate that Jack hoped that he could return to the island by dying, but (I believe that) they have certainly left that channel open with the trend of dead people who have since invaded the dreams of island residents

[Hordriss]

There does seem to be a strong possibility that Future-Jack has bought in to the notion that the island is some form of afterlife, which would certainly help to account for his extreme belief that it was a terrible mistake to attempt returning to the "land of the living". Evidently, in spite of his desire to return to the Island, he does not consider it worthwhile to simply cruise around the South Pacific in a boat in hopes of stumbling upon it. Rather, he is more "hopeful" that the best way of getting back would be to replicate the circumstances of his previous arrival: another disastrous plane crash.

Podcasts aside (which incline against the Hell / Purgatory theory), no definitive answer has been given for this within the canon of the show. Strong hints have been thrown at us ever since "Exodus", when Sun speculated that the Island might be a form of Purgatory, and the brief appearance of "The Third Policeman" in the hatch library (a surreal novel set in an afterlife) seemed to confirm the idea, even before Season 3 began dropping explicit hints. Since it is quite a clichéd idea, I'm holding out against it, and have this much in my favour…

People have died on the Island, which would seem unlikely in the afterlife (although that might just signify passing from Purgatory into Hell or Heaven proper).

Boats have been able to navigate there, suggesting a real world location (but on the other hand, we have never actually seen them arrive: Juliet and Desmond both completed their journey apparently unconscious).

Alpert can seemingly travel with ease between Island and mainland (although he does seem to be an immortal being, to whom the rules may not apply. Ethan would be a better example, but for all we know Alpert recruited him on the same mission that he employed Juliet).

Radio transmissions can travel between Island and mainland, unless jammed. Electromagnetic activity on the Island is able to trigger sensing equipment in the Antarctic (This, at least, is undeniable).

Perhaps most revealingly, the Dharma Initiative were able to construct and maintain a colony on the Island: a feat which would require a reliable supply chain and the ability to transport people back and forth without undue hassle, strongly suggesting a real location (However, since Dante posited real geographical locations for Hell and Purgatory, this is not necessarily a denial… though it does powerfully mitigate against Future-Jack's belief that it is necessary to die in order to locate the Island. That would have made it rather hard for Dharma to recruit anyone).

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Hordriss

There does seem to be a strong possibility that Future-Jack has bought in to the notion that the island is some form of afterlife, which would certainly help to account for his extreme belief that it was a terrible mistake to attempt returning to the "land of the living". Evidently, in spite of his desire to return to the Island, he does not consider it worthwhile to simply cruise around the South Pacific in a boat in hopes of stumbling upon it. Rather, he is more "hopeful" that the best way of getting back would be to replicate the circumstances of his previous arrival: another disastrous plane crash.

Most interesting observation - when I read that I immediately thought 'time loops'. I wonder whether Jack now believes that when things are done in a specific order, that desired outcomes can be acheived? This is a throwback to Locke's "you're not supposed to do this", and Ben's very specific way of approaching his objectives.

In other words, is trying to replicate a previous event in history 'a' way to cause the loop to resurface (as you mentioned)? Perhaps not literally, but maybe Jack is so desperate that he now believes in the notion of doing things in a 'certain' way?

Podcasts aside (which incline against the Hell / Purgatory theory), no definitive answer has been given for this within the canon of the show. Strong hints have been thrown at us ever since "Exodus", when Sun speculated that the Island might be a form of Purgatory, and the brief appearance of "The Third Policeman" in the hatch library (a surreal novel set in an afterlife) seemed to confirm the idea, even before Season 3 began dropping explicit hints. Since it is quite a clichéd idea, I'm holding out against it, and have this much in my favour…

People have died on the Island, which would seem unlikely in the afterlife (although that might just signify passing from Purgatory into Hell or Heaven proper).

Boats have been able to navigate there, suggesting a real world location (but on the other hand, we have never actually seen them arrive: Juliet and Desmond both completed their journey apparently unconscious).

Alpert can seemingly travel with ease between Island and mainland (although he does seem to be an immortal being, to whom the rules may not apply. Ethan would be a better example, but for all we know Alpert recruited him on the same mission that he employed Juliet).

Radio transmissions can travel between Island and mainland, unless jammed. Electromagnetic activity on the Island is able to trigger sensing equipment in the Antarctic (This, at least, is undeniable).

Perhaps most revealingly, the Dharma Initiative were able to construct and maintain a colony on the Island: a feat which would require a reliable supply chain and the ability to transport people back and forth without undue hassle, strongly suggesting a real location (However, since Dante posited real geographical locations for Hell and Purgatory, this is not necessarily a denial… though it does powerfully mitigate against Future-Jack's belief that it is necessary to die in order to locate the Island. That would have made it rather hard for Dharma to recruit anyone).

Good points, although I wouldn't argue the idea of the island actually existing in a physical way. Rather that the island acts as a conduit for both physical existence and a spiritual (manifestations, subconscious etc) existence.

When the physical world is unchangeable..does one leap head-first into the dark? The same dark where dreams reside, where dreams are not only possible..but 'alive'..

I should also add that I'm not suggesting purgatory either - rather the an after-life, of sorts, through the control of the island, or the subconscious extractions of current island residents.

For instance, was that 'Boone' who helped Locke in 3.03?..or was it the island?..or perhaps it was fusion of both..

[Hordriss]

Re: the posthumous Boone: we have had a big pointer about the nature of those apparitions, namely "ghost-Yemi's" contemptuous parting words to Eko: "You speak to me as if I were your brother" (heavily implying that he is not, in any real sense). The ghosts and visions could, ultimately, all be a form of spiritual propaganda designed to manipulate the Losties - a supernatural version of Ben's own favoured conditioning technique ("Same way I get anybody to do anything. I find out what he's emotionally invested in, and I exploit it").

However, if that was the case, it would strongly suggest that the Island and/or Jacob had in fact turned against the Others, and was "grooming" selected Losties to take over their original purpose (whatever that may have been. Alpert certainly seems to feel they have lost sight of their objectives, and Ben's relationship with the Invisible Man seems enigmatically unpromising at best). Perhaps Ben was very right to fear Locke as a potential usurper, and all-too aware of the justness of his "Pharisee" accusation, bearing in mind that in assuming lordship of the Dharma colony, virtually intact, and taking over their various nasty devices, drugs and research projects, Ben - like other revolutionaries before him - has in a large sense become the thing that he set out to destroy.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Hordriss

Re: the posthumous Boone: we have had a big pointer about the nature of those apparitions, namely "ghost-Yemi's" contemptuous parting words to Eko: "You speak to me as if I were your brother" (heavily implying that he is not, in any real sense). The ghosts and visions could, ultimately, all be a form of spiritual propaganda designed to manipulate the Losties - a supernatural version of Ben's own favoured conditioning technique ("Same way I get anybody to do anything. I find out what he's emotionally invested in, and I exploit it").

Yes, good point, and I would agree with you except it could also be argued that the 'Yemi' Eko encountered previously (2.20) was far more akin to the Yemi he knew before he died. Same with Locke's 'Boone' and Ben's Emily - we've also seen the helpful side to these 'visions'. The comment you referenced may have been the island(or)Smokey's way of saying that this is not the Yemi he knew.. a fused 'bad twin' doesn't a Yemi make.

That aside I'm not imply that the visions are the people who have died, I'm suggesting that they are 'partly' the people who have died (in a residual sence) as their souls are still, imo, 'alive'. Even if the island is impersonating these people (which I believe is happening), I also believe that the island can only impersonate these dead people within the framwork of their souls - that said, I'm possibly suggesting that the soul of a person is governed by the inner core of who they are..who they were. So, for example 'island Yemi's' interpretation of Eko refusing to apologise was possible based on him (real Yemi) being a priest and viewing repetence in black and white. There was no middle ground interpretation for Smokey to use because Yemi's 'truth' is what governs his soul.

I do believe that these dead people are puppets on strings..but even strings must be connected (governed) by something..

However, if that was the case, it would strongly suggest that the Island and/or Jacob had in fact turned against the Others, and was "grooming" selected Losties to take over their original purpose (whatever that may have been. Alpert certainly seems to feel they have lost sight of their objectives, and Ben's relationship with the Invisible Man seems enigmatically unpromising at best). Perhaps Ben was very right to fear Locke as a potential usurper, and all-too aware of the justness of his "Pharisee" accusation, bearing in mind that in assuming lordship of the Dharma colony, virtually intact, and taking over their various nasty devices, drugs and research projects, Ben - like other revolutionaries before him - has in a large sense become the thing that he set out to destroy.

Quite possible..I'm in the camp who believes that they were all brought (summoned?) to the island for a very real reason..possibly by Jacob, possibly by the island, possibly by the forces which govern the Universe.

You're right to point out the rather tense relationship between Jacob and Ben - although I believe that there is a very real reason as to why Jacob has seemingly been contained in his shack. I believe that with an island of magic boxes, Jacob may just be too dangerous (perhaps unitnetionally) to be allowed to roam around freely. Or, perhaps my theory is correct and Jacob was partly manifested by Ben's imagination (via 'magic box') and to allow him (Jacob) to then tap into the magic box would create a dangerous paradox.

I wouldn't agree that Locke was right in calling Ben a 'Pharisee' - I think that Locke was being hasty in his estimation - as Ben said, he's been on this island for 5 minutes and he thinks he knows it all. Locke needed to stop being like Jack and think things through a little more. imo.

Ben does indeed recycle Dharma's methods and science..however haven't we, as a human race, reused and recycled the ills of our forefathers? Even Lost is a beautiful mesh of recycled relics from popular culture history - "The Prisoner", "Twin peaks", "The Third Policeman", etc.

Also, I feel that we must remember that Ben is a Dharma child - I believe that he saw the good in Dharma's science..but he also experience and witnessed the bad. How you seperate that is subjective, but I trust Ben's judgement

*Also, good shout re: the fact that Desmond and Jules were both unconcious upon coming to the island..as were the 815'ers (except Kate maybe). Possible connections there.