Vatican Conspiracy - The Faith, The Fraud?

[D-Roc]

Hmm, i was thinking. Could the Vatican be involved in this whole Island/Hanso etc thing?

The other day, when i rewatched the scene with Eko and Monsignor, the following convo was had after Eko had been informed of Mrs Malkins 'miracle' daughter:

Eko "..I cannot do what you asked..I do not believe that this woman says"

Monsignor "Why do you think I chose you?"

I know this can [and probably should] be taken at face value..but i wonder, did the church send Eko to investigate the 'miracle' because they knew..they hoped that he would get to the bottom of the matter and cast a much needed cynical eye on the story?

Did Mr Malkin know that his daughter was special..was he fabricating/covering up what happened in order to disuade Hanso from getting their hands on her?

There's just something about the way Monsignor said "why do you think I chose you?"..it reminds me of the whole island/pre-selection idea..

Are the Vatican implicated in all of this. DaVinci code eat your heart out?

[StoneRose]

Correct me if I wrong but arent the vatican catholic/Christian? In which case would they want other religions in on the idea or on the island? After all I doubt if Sayid, Sun, Jin are Catholic.

I,m not sure I understand what you mean Rocco? Do you mean the Vatican could be in with Hanso/Dharma? That they are also part of what is/was taking place on the island?

Interesting theory.

[Pynch]

oh my!

Thats a good theory...

I think that certainly the church sent Eko to investigate because they knew the story was false, and they needed someone who wouldn't be taken in by the miracle....

and then, because Eko had passed that 'test' - it was engineered that he would visit the island, and expose the belief system there too - i.e. to find the Pearl hatch, and show John that entering the numebrs was part of a social experiment....

Although Eko wants Locke to continue, and thinks the numbers are still important, which wouldn't add up here.... *pours water on own theory*

and I like the idea that the fake psychic was protecting his daughter from Hanso.... and as Eko was sent to expose the story as false (IMO), which would mean that the church was interested in protecting the girl from Hanso too......

maybe this ties in with the theory that Henry Gale's balloon was actually a spy balloon, sent to find out what was going on on the island?? Maybe Eko's brother was the first church spy, and Eko himself has been the more successful second attempt (fighting off the Others at the beginning).

*brain whirrs uncontrollably *

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by StoneRose,September 12, 2006 03:13 pm

Correct me if I wrong but arent the vatican catholic/Christian? In which case would they want other religions in on the idea or on the island? After all I doubt if Sayid, Sun, Jin are Catholic.

I,m not sure I understand what you mean Rocco? Do you mean the Vatican could be in with Hanso/Dharma? That they are also part of what is/was taking place on the island?

Interesting theory.

Yeah the Vatican are Catholic=Christian. Jin and Sun i presume are possibly Buddhists [though not confirmed] and Sayid is Muslim.

Yeah, basically i reckon that Hanso foundation has many fingers in many pies..by that i mean that their reach and influence no doubt stretches very far..perhaps even into areas that we wouldnt expect for a science company/entity. So how about the Vatican..I mean why not..if the Davinci Code/Angels and Demons has taught us anything then it's taught us that even the most sacred of sanctuary's are tarnished. OK..the Davinci/Angels & Demons code is pure fiction [or is it ]..but still..who's to say that Hanso's foundation hasnt got a 'faith' arm/division to it's operations? Afterall, they would need someone to advice them on the faith aspects of their experiments..

Im not suggesting that 'everyone' within the Vatican would be invloved..afterall not everyone would need know All it would take is a few high ranking officials or those with influence..such as 'Father'..or people who see themseves as 'prophets'..who are in actual fact 'false prophets'..perhaps tired of the direction the Vatican is going in or perhaps even hired and planted from the get go by the Hanso foundation?

[Pynch]

I'm not sure about the vatican (or members of) being 'in' on the whole Hanso thing.... but it does seem plausible that religious bodies might be very afraid of what Hanso is doing on the island and elsewhere regarding extending life, influencing behaviour and whatever their thing is with kids.....

In that respect, Hanso is like Darwin (err... ) and is pretty much saying 'there is no God' - since Hanso appear to be playing God in all their activities. So it wouldn't be too big a surprise to think that those who believe in God would be anti-hanso.

[Pynch]

oh, and *on a roll*, maybe thats behind Eko's plan for building a church - to convert the non-believers (i.e. hanso-followers) and to restore faith of an Almighty kind...... and maybe he wants Locke to keep pushing the button, but not because of faith in Hanso (which has been shot to pieces) but because of faith in an even higher being.......

[StoneRose]

Ahh I see thanx Rocco, having a dumb blonde moment there!

Yeah that could be possible, after all using Davinci code as an example, they lied about the blood line and still carried on with the teachings of the Bible even though they knew it to be false. So just because Hanso would be seen as playing God, if The vatican can cover something up like the blood line this would be a piece of cake to them. (Again I know the Davinci code is fiction but just applying the same way of thinking)

Good point Rocco, although what would be the purpose of the vatica being involved? What would this accomplish for them other than making Christianity even more flawed in the eyes of the public?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Pynch,September 12, 2006 03:17 pm

oh my!

Thats a good theory...

I think that certainly the church sent Eko to investigate because they knew the story was false, and they needed someone who wouldn't be taken in by the miracle....

and then, because Eko had passed that 'test' - it was engineered that he would visit the island, and expose the belief system there too - i.e. to find the Pearl hatch, and show John that entering the numebrs was part of a social experiment....

Although Eko wants Locke to continue, and thinks the numbers are still important, which wouldn't add up here.... *pours water on own theory*

and I like the idea that the fake psychic was protecting his daughter from Hanso.... and as Eko was sent to expose the story as false (IMO), which would mean that the church was interested in protecting the girl from Hanso too......

maybe this ties in with the theory that Henry Gale's balloon was actually a spy balloon, sent to find out what was going on on the island?? Maybe Eko's brother was the first church spy, and Eko himself has been the more successful second attempt (fighting off the Others at the beginning).

*brain whirrs uncontrollably *

Interesting take on it Pynch. Personally im not sure that Yemi was a spy as such. I think he is a good and great man as Eko said.

And what if the church were not protecting Malkins daughter from Hanso as such...rather, what if they and Hanso were working together on unearthing another special child?

There's an interesting possibility here that the church..obviously has deep rooted belief in faith, miracles, special children [eg Jesus Christ]..so what if they did a deal with their 'supposed' enemy, Science [Hanso F]..in order to progress mankind..to apply Science to faith and make real life mircales happen? It's a bit like 2 sides ..dark and light..coming together..forming a pact.

For instance, who fixed Sarah's legs...was it a miracle..or perhaps Hanso induced scintific miracle?

Is faith being used to harness peoples devotion..a bit like how Lockes being used..is science the new world faith?

Ok, I rambled on a bit there

But you could be right..in that maybe the Church was trying to protect Malkins daughter form Hanso F? Perhaps theyre not working together but working against one another? Though at this point i would personally say that the Vatican is implicated in Hanso F. Although maybe not as couldnt they then sue JJ ..on 2nd thoughts, they didnt manage to sue Dan Brown did they!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Pynch,September 12, 2006 03:42 pm

I'm not sure about the vatican (or members of) being 'in' on the whole Hanso thing.... but it does seem plausible that religious bodies might be very afraid of what Hanso is doing on the island and elsewhere regarding extending life, influencing behaviour and whatever their thing is with kids.....

In that respect, Hanso is like Darwin (err... ) and is pretty much saying 'there is no God' - since Hanso appear to be playing God in all their activities. So it wouldn't be too big a surprise to think that those who believe in God would be anti-hanso.

Good points Pynch, i also like this perspective as it makes much sense.

Like you say, Hanso..[or perhaps not Hanso himself because personally i reckon someone else is now steering his ship] or 'Him' see themselves as 'God', from what we have heard/interpreted about 'him'. Furthermore science over the years has been faiths biggest opponent [apart from faith Vs faith..which as we know is a whole other story ]. Some say that Eve ate the Apple she yearned to know more..she was curious..and so this meant that she didnt have faith in God's word..she chose an early form of science over faith in God..so her and Adam were chucked out of the Garden of Eden. So what if this Hanso island is like the modern day scientific Garden of Eden?

And perhaps as you say, certain religious organisations/bodies around the world know of Hanso and his foundation..they know of the island and what goes on there and it is their responsibility for the good of mankind to put a stop to it? This would also fit well with the whole light vs dark thing..science vs faith. With both sides thinking they are doing whats 'best' for mankind?

Though whilst i respect that viewpoint and find much value in it...i just have a sneaky feeling that Hanso 'at least' has a faith division of sorts.. outsiode help from one of the worlds cornerstones would be such a 'revelation' [excuse the pun]. Or perhaps i just love conspiracies too much

[Pynch]

Originally Posted by KoRevo

the church..obviously has deep rooted belief in faith, miracles, special children [eg Jesus Christ]..

good point... I wonder if we will see Malkin's daughter on the island?

since Malkin was responsible for putting Claire and the unborn Aaron on the plane to the island, this latest backstory backs up the idea that he is a recruiter for the island. At the moment though I can't work out whether he would be protecting his daughter from being found out because he didn't want the island to have her, or because he wanted to send her to the island (without too much publicity/fuss)

and Yemi might not have known he was a spy.... I don't think Eko knows the reason he is on the island, but he knows there is one... finding out he was put there to work for Hanso would really freak him out..... but finding out he was there to work for God, well, I think both Yemi and Eko would be quite proud of that.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Pynch,September 12, 2006 03:44 pm

oh, and *on a roll*, maybe thats behind Eko's plan for building a church - to convert the non-believers (i.e. hanso-followers) and to restore faith of an Almighty kind...... and maybe he wants Locke to keep pushing the button, but not because of faith in Hanso (which has been shot to pieces) but because of faith in an even higher being.......

I think Eko was building the Church because he was told to do it when he saw into the Black Smoke..

The last image in the black smoke was of a Cross on a Church..now i reckon Eko took this as affirmation that God has forgiven him and now he must forgive himself..and also continue the good work that Yemi had done by building a Church etc.

I dont think Eko was necessarily doing it for anyone in particular..i think his sole objective was to get it done because he was following a dream:

"Havent you ever followed a dream, John?" [Ep.21]

[Pynch]

ah yes, but that might be just what Eko thinks.....

Just like Locke pushing the button - he thought it was for one purpose, was shown the Pearl and realised that purpose was not true (and lost his faith in it), and might now follow Eko's request to continue pushing the button, but for a different 'faith' altogether

In that way, faith itself is continuous and unshakeable - even if the purpose or direction of that faith changes.....

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by StoneRose,September 12, 2006 03:48 pm

Ahh I see thanx Rocco, having a dumb blonde moment there!

Yeah that could be possible, after all using Davinci code as an example, they lied about the blood line and still carried on with the teachings of the Bible even though they knew it to be false. So just because Hanso would be seen as playing God, if The vatican can cover something up like the blood line this would be a piece of cake to them. (Again I know the Davinci code is fiction but just applying the same way of thinking)

Good point Rocco, although what would be the purpose of the vatica being involved? What would this accomplish for them other than making Christianity even more flawed in the eyes of the public?

Yeah..so if we take the DVC example we can see how much the Church covered up..and that in order to keep their faith of the people certain 'murky' things were done. Of course we know that the DVC is fiction..but sometimes these days it's hard to know where the demarcation line between fiction and fact are..especially with major entities..even those we think are sacred. Afterall man is man..tainted.

Lets say the Vatican are involved, then personally i would say that their objective would be to jump onboard before they missed the boat [so to speak]. Because it could be argued that these days more and more people are finding alternative faiths [eg healing..scientology etc] or even aethism..all of which are eroding the Christian [and other popular faiths] population. So perhaps the Vatican believed that they could turn this threat into an opportunity and join forces with one of Science' most forward thinking insitutions. Of course this would all remain secret.

All Hanso.F would ask would be for a constant supply of subjects and for them to reduce their opposition to science..and in return the Vatican would have access to Hanso.F's most scientifically advance treatments/remedies...all of which, to those in the dark [ie the rest of the world] it would seem like 'miracles' when they were used to heal people etc. So bascially people would continue to have faith in Christianity etc..but in reality and unbeknown to them..what they really had faith in was science [and the Hanso foundation]..since it was science that is creating these 'so-called' miracles..

So therefore both parties would benefit..as long as it all remained a secret that is...

Possible?? ...or have i crossed the line?

[StoneRose]

Thats a brilliant theory!

*pats Rocco on the back*

Eko aside there arent many religious people on the island are there really, yet we have had a few religious happenings -

Charlies dream/Vision
Eko's plain/dressed up priests
Claire/Aaron being baptised
The dead being burried rather than cremated (aside from the fuselodge)

All this religious activity seems to have happened when Eko joined the camp. I dont recall any major religious goings on in the first series when he wasnt around or am I wrong?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Pynch,September 12, 2006 04:02 pm

good point... I wonder if we will see Malkin's daughter on the island?

since Malkin was responsible for putting Claire and the unborn Aaron on the plane to the island, this latest backstory backs up the idea that he is a recruiter for the island. At the moment though I can't work out whether he would be protecting his daughter from being found out because he didn't want the island to have her, or because he wanted to send her to the island (without too much publicity/fuss)

and Yemi might not have known he was a spy.... I don't think Eko knows the reason he is on the island, but he knows there is one... finding out he was put there to work for Hanso would really freak him out..... but finding out he was there to work for God, well, I think both Yemi and Eko would be quite proud of that.

I think theres a clue that at the time of this Eko flashback it was 2001 [Malkin's house number]..therefore it could be suggested that by the time of the crash..or rather just before the crash when Malkin met Claire..he [Malkin] was a Hanso agent? Perhaps he wasnt at the time Eko visited but once the HAnso foundation [with the help of the Vatican?] got their claws into his daughter...perhaps he was 'made' to convince Claire to get onboard Oceanic 815. Afterall, Malkin did change his mind didnt he? At first he was dead against her givng her baby away etc...perhaps they [Hanso people] threatened his daughter..perhaps they told him that if he didnt convince Claire to board the plane then he'd never see his daughter again. A bit like the 'deal' they presumably made with Michael, perhaps....?