Vatican Conspiracy - The Faith, The Fraud?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Pynch,September 12, 2006 04:11 pm

ah yes, but that might be just what Eko thinks.....

Just like Locke pushing the button - he thought it was for one purpose, was shown the Pearl and realised that purpose was not true (and lost his faith in it), and might now follow Eko's request to continue pushing the button, but for a different 'faith' altogether

In that way, faith itself is continuous and unshakeable - even if the purpose or direction of that faith changes.....

Yes, you raise a relevent point..because although Eko saw the church in the black smoke and took this to mean that he had to build a church..we perhaps should bear in mind that what they [Locke, Eko] see in the black smoke is perhaps their own subconcious and not necessarily anything other than a 'memory'...?

ALthough..on the otherhand it could be argued that their subconciousness is being tapped into by some force which is trying to help them..trying to guide them? I would like this to be the case.

And i liked what you said in regards to Locke..about faith being unchangeble even though the 'direction' of that faith may alter and the paths may change...

In fact Locke is a great exmaple of this..not only because this is now happening to him with regards to taking a step back due to the pearl relvelation..but also because Locke himself knew this...he prophesised it. This is a man who said that 'the bits and pieces need to be put together' and that there exists a "chain of events". Locke knew that things arent always in a linear pattern..that sometimes..just sometimes you have to go back...before you can go forward.

Afterall..."it's never been easy.."

[StoneRose]

I just assumed the church we saw in the black smoke was the church Yemi worked at in Nigeria?

Wasnt it just a flashback of Ekos life which we saw?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by StoneRose,September 12, 2006 04:22 pm

Thats a brilliant theory!

*pats Rocco on the back*

Eko aside there arent many religious people on the island are there really, yet we have had a few religious happenings -

Charlies dream/Vision
Eko's plain/dressed up priests
Claire/Aaron being baptised
The dead being burried rather than cremated (aside from the fuselodge)

All this religious activity seems to have happened when Eko joined the camp. I dont recall any major religious goings on in the first series when he wasnt around or am I wrong?

Why thankyou SR :P Watch it now blow up in my face, lol!

Yeah ther ehave been lots of religious references and happenings..

Though i personally think that their are quite a few religious peeople on the island:

Eko [Chrsitian/Catholic]
Charlie [as above]
Desmond [Christian/dualist?]
Sayid [Muslim]
Rose [Christian]

There were quite a few religious references in S1 also..i cant remember them right now but they were there..i remember because i kept ramblin on about the whole dark/light thing and how light represented science and dark represented ffaith and how they used to be one ethos - from 'darkness comes light' and all that. :P

[StoneRose]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 12, 2006 03:36 pm

Why thankyou SR :P Watch it now blow up in my face, lol!

Yeah ther ehave been lots of religious references and happenings..

Though i personally think that their are quite a few religious peeople on the island:

Eko [Chrsitian/Catholic]
Charlie [as above]
Desmond [Christian/dualist?]
Sayid [Muslim]
Rose [Christian]

There were quite a few religious references in S1 also..i cant remember them right now but they were there..i remember because i kept ramblin on about the whole dark/light thing and how light represented science and dark represented ffaith and how they used to be one ethos - from 'darkness comes light' and all that. :P

Have we seen any evidence of those said characters being religious though?

Rose knew Bernard was alive but is that religious or just hope?

Charlie went to confession but said it had been ages since his last one and when his band took off we never saw him in a church again.

Sayid was in a mosque in Australia but that was just so he could get close to those terrorists wasnt it?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by StoneRose,September 12, 2006 04:35 pm

I just assumed the church we saw in the black smoke was the church Yemi worked at in Nigeria?

Wasnt it just a flashback of Ekos life which we saw?

Yeah it was Yemi's Church and it was a flashback form his life. But it was specific images. It could be argued that the black smoke is able to tap into peoples most deep rooted memories and extract them. For what reasons? WHo knows..perhaps the BS is recording info as part of the earlier experiements?

One thing i will say though - Locke described the BS as "looking into the eye of the island" [i think we can assume he meant the BS].."the eye of the island" - thats crucial methinks. [it has been said that] Eye's show the truth..so we could then infer that what they see whilst looking into the BS is what they need to do?..it's like a mirror of their own subconcious guiding them..telling them what to do, maybe? Afterall, they also say that your life flashes before you when you die..that truth comes out. So, is the BS in essence a manisfestation of this..is the BS a guide?

Or is it being controlled and manipulated..

Million dollar question

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 12, 2006 04:14 pm

Yeah..so if we take the DVC example we can see how much the Church covered up..and that in order to keep their faith of the people certain 'murky' things were done. Of course we know that the DVC is fiction..but sometimes these days it's hard to know where the demarcation line between fiction and fact are..especially with major entities..even those we think are sacred. Afterall man is man..tainted.

Lets say the Vatican are involved, then personally i would say that their objective would be to jump onboard before they missed the boat [so to speak]. Because it could be argued that these days more and more people are finding alternative faiths [eg healing..scientology etc] or even aethism..all of which are eroding the Christian [and other popular faiths] population. So perhaps the Vatican believed that they could turn this threat into an opportunity and join forces with one of Science' most forward thinking insitutions. Of course this would all remain secret.

All Hanso.F would ask would be for a constant supply of subjects and for them to reduce their opposition to science..and in return the Vatican would have access to Hanso.F's most scientifically advance treatments/remedies...all of which, to those in the dark [ie the rest of the world] it would seem like 'miracles' when they were used to heal people etc. So bascially people would continue to have faith in Christianity etc..but in reality and unbeknown to them..what they really had faith in was science [and the Hanso foundation]..since it was science that is creating these 'so-called' miracles..

So therefore both parties would benefit..as long as it all remained a secret that is...

Possible?? ...or have i crossed the line?

That's a really good theory Roco! Very nice...

A lot of the points you raised have happened to an extent with the Church (I mean the way the Church is trying to raise attendance levels for example) - Church attendance has dramatically dropped over the past couple of decades or so, as people instead put thier faith in science to deliver what the Church offers: eternal life, hope and salvation. It involves a lot less effort to believe in something that can be seen and proven correct, and these days people expect everything to happen faster and faster - people are impatient, and when something doesn't happen for them almost immediately they lose interest and respect and turn elsewhere, and so I reckon science has filled a lot of the Church's roles.
The Church has already tried to modernise itself to win back worshippers (for example allowing woman priets, widening the types of place a wedding ceromony can be conducted, having live bands play in church etc etc), and so if Lost is set in today's timline then it's entirely plausible that the Church would be thinking and acting along the same lines.

Knowing that most of the population now only have faith in what can be seen and proved with the naked eye, the Church could indeed have done a deal with the Hanso Foundation for treatments to heal people with, or for different technology that would still paint the Church in the same positive light. Then the number of people attending Church would increase, and so the Church's status and power would increase, and it would become a major player on the world stage again. (And let's not forget that more people would also mean more donations/contributions to the Church as well).

And like you said the Chuch would, in exchange, supply Hanso with information on 'special' people that could benefit thier research, which the Church (aka the few high ranking ministers which knew about it) would simply turn a blind eye. They would justify it to themselves that it was merely a means to an end: that yes ok even though people were coming back to the Church under false pretences, once they got there they would begin to worship and believe out of their own free will...they simply got a little incentive for them to eventually do the right thing.

[StoneRose]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 12, 2006 03:42 pm

Yeah it was Yemi's Church and it was a flashback form his life. But it was specific images. It could be argued that the black smoke is able to tap into peoples most deep rooted memories and extract them. For what reasons? WHo knows..perhaps the BS is recording info as part of the earlier experiements?

One thing i will say though - Locke described the BS as "looking into the eye of the island" [i think we can assume he meant the BS].."the eye of the island" - thats crucial methinks. [it has been said that] Eye's show the truth..so we could then infer that what they see whilst looking into the BS is what they need to do?..it's like a mirror of their own subconcious guiding them..telling them what to do, maybe? Afterall, they also say that your life flashes before you when you die..that truth comes out. So, is the BS in essence a manisfestation of this..is the BS a guide?

Or is it being controlled and manipulated..

Million dollar question

Yeah I get where your coming from and I suppose with the whole close up on the characters eyes there must be something to it.

I have a theory on this but I have to leave work now so I'll be on again when I get home!! :toodles:

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by StoneRose,September 12, 2006 04:41 pm

Have we seen any evidence of those said characters being religious though?

Rose knew Bernard was alive but is that religious or just hope?

Charlie went to confession but said it had been ages since his last one and when his band took off we never saw him in a church again.

Sayid was in a mosque in Australia but that was just so he could get close to those terrorists wasnt it?

Charlie is a Catholic - he might not be a good one ..but that is his faith. In S1 we see him in confession pas you said]..we also see him saying the 23rd Psalm with Eko in the episode of the same name.
Whatsmore he's the only one helping Eko build the Church..perhaps since he's the only other Catholic..

Rose - good point, i suppose we dont know that Rose is religious. Perhaps all of her faith stems from her meeting with Isaac..or moreso her arrival on the island.. Though im sure the was a reference to her being Christian somewhere in S1 ..will have to do some digging, lol.

Sayid - he is Muslim..we see him praying when he gets caught in Danielle's trap in 'Solitary' [S1].

Desmond - We see him 'Crossing himself' just before he turns on the 'fixed' computer, so he's Christian. I suspect he's also a man of science though, seeing as he went to med school and is a Dharma employee. Though perhaps unwittingly.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior,September 12, 2006 04:47 pm

That's a really good theory Roco! Very nice...

A lot of the points you raised have happened to an extent with the Church (I mean the way the Church is trying to raise attendance levels for example) - Church attendance has dramatically dropped over the past couple of decades or so, as people instead put thier faith in science to deliver what the Church offers: eternal life, hope and salvation. It involves a lot less effort to believe in something that can be seen and proven correct, and these days people expect everything to happen faster and faster - people are impatient, and when something doesn't happen for them almost immediately they lose interest and respect and turn elsewhere, and so I reckon science has filled a lot of the Church's roles.
The Church has already tried to modernise itself to win back worshippers (for example allowing woman priets, widening the types of place a wedding ceromony can be conducted, having live bands play in church etc etc), and so if Lost is set in today's timline then it's entirely plausible that the Church would be thinking and acting along the same lines.

Knowing that most of the population now only have faith in what can be seen and proved with the naked eye, the Church could indeed have done a deal with the Hanso Foundation for treatments to heal people with, or for different technology that would still paint the Church in the same positive light. Then the number of people attending Church would increase, and so the Church's status and power would increase, and it would become a major player on the world stage again. (And let's not forget that more people would also mean more donations/contributions to the Church as well).

And like you said the Chuch would, in exchange, supply Hanso with information on 'special' people that could benefit thier research, which the Church (aka the few high ranking ministers which knew about it) would simply turn a blind eye. They would justify it to themselves that it was merely a means to an end: that yes ok even though people were coming back to the Church under false pretences, once they got there they would begin to worship and believe out of their own free will...they simply got a little incentive for them to eventually do the right thing.

Thanks Ki - im just glad it makes sense..even if it is probably wrong, lol

Very good points Ki - people these days do [on the whole] need to see proven results..something tangible that affirms their faith or believe..and i guess believing in God is just too hard..as Locke said - "it's never been easy"..and that essentially is faith..it's not easy..it's damned hard..and that's the whole point of faith, i suppose. And as you say, this is when people often turn to science and other things. Science can give us proven results and science these days produce more miracles than faith..or so they say.

Yeah, the Church is trying to keep pace with todays culture..in effect it is becoming less blinkered and more open minded [quite ironic really]. And so seeing as science is taking all of the miracles...why not get in with them? A pact with the enemy, some might say? As long as the people dont know, then what harm will it do..both 'sides' will benifit.

This would also give both sides more control over the people. They would chose who and when to give these 'miracles' to. Scientific Miracles repackaged as miracles of faith..now theres a concept! Because it could also be argued that in the interests of mankind science and faith have to work together. So could this be evidence of this...or is this not quite the way it should be done..afterall such methods would still involve lying to people..

Going back to your point - yes, such a deal would indeed paint the Church in a positive light..it wouldnt harm the coffers [finances] either. All of which would mean that the Church would have a hold on the world once more...a desperate manouvre but worthwhile in their eyes. But what if the Church became too strong..Hmm.. how would Hanso keep them in check..

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by StoneRose,September 12, 2006 04:47 pm

Yeah I get where your coming from and I suppose with the whole close up on the characters eyes there must be something to it.

I have a theory on this but I have to leave work now so I'll be on again when I get home!! :toodles:

Cool, look forward to hearing it SR!

[Pynch]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 12, 2006 03:22 pm

perhaps they [Hanso people] threatened his daughter..perhaps they told him that if he didnt convince Claire to board the plane then he'd never see his daughter again. A bit like the 'deal' they presumably made with Michael, perhaps....?

yes - maybe the plane ticket he had was really for his daughter (she was at the airport after all, seeing Eko?) and he gave it to Claire instead, so that his daughter could be saved from Hanso.......

oooooh.....

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Pynch,September 12, 2006 05:08 pm

yes - maybe the plane ticket he had was really for his daughter (she was at the airport after all, seeing Eko?) and he gave it to Claire instead, so that his daughter could be saved from Hanso.......

oooooh.....

Hmm, interesting..very interesting.

Though you would think that Hanso F would be monitoring the whole situation..but still, it's worth considering