Hostiles' Objectives Pre-Purge

[Reed]

The Hostiles Purged Dharma - but WHY exactly?

• Were they in need of equipment/supplies?

• Did they have experiments in mind?

• Did they want to carry on Dharma's experiments?

• Did they want to see what Dharma were up to?

• Perhaps they just wanted to stop Dharma's activities?

We are aware of "some" of the experiments that the Others carried out in S3 but were these continued from the days of Dharma? Did the Hostiles originally just want to kill Dharma but soon after became interested in experiments? Perphaps Ben had a vision and upon cleaning house he set this vision in motion and NEW experiments and missions were created.

What about this "saving the world" business - were Dharma aiming toward this goal too? Of course this has only been hinted toward with Ben's statements about a greater good and bigger picture.

Ben was merely a Workman so surely upon setting the Purge in motion there could not have been any intention for the Hostiles to conduct Dharma experiments. Well unless of course Ben had connections within the Inner Circle at Dharma.

I am sure there are more hints I cannot think of right now to answer many - if not ALL - of these questions.

[The Wizard]

Well when Desmond asked Kelvin what the button in the Swan was, Kelvin said "Just saving the world", did he not?

[Murgatroyd]

I expect some form of your last option is closest to the mark: either they wanted to stop Dharma's work because they couldn't countenance what they perceived it was doing to the island (perhaps Dharma was unwittingly or uncaringly devastating the island) or perhaps Dharma was directly threatening the 'hostiles' (not a word I'm keen to use, but I'm a bit stuck with it till they'll come out and give themselves a name). The general impression is of Dharma as victims of the hostiles, rather surprisingly, apparently terrified enough to rig a station to explode, hiding kids under desks during attacks and finally being murdered en masse ... but that doesn't mean the hostiles themselves weren't responding - albeit with extreme malice - to as yet unseen violence on the part of Dharma.

Much as I dislike the Others under Ben's leadership and much as I doubt anything can justify a mass, apparently non-defensive gas-attack, I don't have a lot of time for Dharma. If you go to an ecologically isolated island, for one thing you don't take guns - if it's too dangerous for you to be there without eradicating local wildlife, don't go in the first place. And although Alpert and co, as human beings, ought to be able to respond to an unexpected incursion with something other than devastating violence (though admittedly we don't know that dialogue didn't at some stage take place, uncommon though it is to the present day Others), on finding out that there were people already on the island Dharma would've done much better to leave it and perhaps, if they felt those people oughtn't to be there either, to try and find out more from a distance instead of engaging in warfare. As Ben hypocritically but rightly implied, it's a bit off for a group advocating harmony and peace to dig in when the option to bail's open to them.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by The Wizard

Well when Desmond asked Kelvin what the button in the Swan was, Kelvin said "Just saving the world", did he not?

Clearly the Swan was not saving the world so there is no evidence which suggests Dharma were saving Mankind.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

I expect some form of your last option is closest to the mark: either they wanted to stop Dharma's work because they couldn't countenance what they perceived it was doing to the island (perhaps Dharma was unwittingly or uncaringly devastating the island) or perhaps Dharma was directly threatening the 'hostiles' (not a word I'm keen to use, but I'm a bit stuck with it till they'll come out and give themselves a name). The general impression is of Dharma as victims of the hostiles, rather surprisingly, apparently terrified enough to rig a station to explode, hiding kids under desks during attacks and finally being murdered en masse ... but that doesn't mean the hostiles themselves weren't responding - albeit with extreme malice - to as yet unseen violence on the part of Dharma.

Much as I dislike the Others under Ben's leadership and much as I doubt anything can justify a mass, apparently non-defensive gas-attack, I don't have a lot of time for Dharma. If you go to an ecologically isolated island, for one thing you don't take guns - if it's too dangerous for you to be there without eradicating local wildlife, don't go in the first place. And although Alpert and co, as human beings, ought to be able to respond to an unexpected incursion with something other than devastating violence (though admittedly we don't know that dialogue didn't at some stage take place, uncommon though it is to the present day Others), on finding out that there were people already on the island Dharma would've done much better to leave it and perhaps, if they felt those people oughtn't to be there either, to try and find out more from a distance instead of engaging in warfare. As Ben hypocritically but rightly implied, it's a bit off for a group advocating harmony and peace to dig in when the option to bail's open to them.

Interesting comments.

I have read past theories about Dharma "harming" the island so yes that would be reason enough for The Purge. Perhaps we will find out in time just EXACTLY what Dharma were doing on the island and where the island comes into all of this.

Well in EITHER agreeing to The Purge or generating the idea, they seem to suit the name Dharma gave them. But surely we will soon be calling them a new name once [or if] we are given a flashback to the original island inhabitants. It should prove most interesting.

I have also believed that Dharma were probably the victims here. While they are not entirely "good" themselves, I think the Hostiles were "probably" alot worse. However I can sympathise with the Hostiles' aggression toward Dharma in regard to harming their home - the island.

At this point it is extremely difficult to say who is worse - the Hostiles or Dharma. On the one hand we have Dharma destroying the island. On the other we have the Hostiles murdering an entire colony of people. But somewhere in between did Dharma murder Hostiles?

There are SO many gaps in information it is near impossible to take sides imo. Perhaps the Purge was somewhat justified in terms of "we are not going to take this anymore, you all deserve to perish". Interestingly, Ben had Lethal Poison Gas. An indicator of Dharma's bad intentions?

Well the island was uncharted, unknown - and guns would protect Dharma workers if ever needed. Obviously they felt they needed to invade the island due to it's properties/resources and this outweighed the potential dangers of being there - local wildlife as you say. That is like telling explorers not to take rifles to the North Pole in case of being attacked by Polar Bears - which ironically enough is the same environment on the island.

I would have thought that Alpert and Co. did try friendly communication, however being told by polite locals to drop a Billion Dollar Research Project you have implemented is quite laughable from Dharma's perspective. What do you mean "find out more from a distance"?

I am sure that if Dharma ever fought back, that it was in "self defence" - judging by the classroom scene with little Ben. While Dharma may advocate Peace & Harmony, this was obviously only feasible if a bunch of crazy island inhabitants are not trying to murder you. Self defence imo.

You cannot remain so peaceful that you are willing to die in the process. That is like saying England should have remained peaceful when the Nazi's were trying to invade the world. Yes Dharma invaded the original inhabitants home, though is not the world a free place? I suppose in alot of circumstances it is not.

Of course if the original inhabitants were a very old civilisation then clearly they were always going to go to extreme lengths to protect their land. They were never going to stand for a group to invade their land - their country. The only difference here is that Dharma only wanted to live on the island, as opposed to your typical invasion - taking people hostage, murder, etc.

I do not think for one moment Dharma would have bailed, irregardless of being a peaceful organisation. I think this peacefulness stems from "we will invade this island peacefully without destroying wildlife or peoples, but if we are attacked and cannot reason, then to hell with Peace". Which is not exactly justified but there you go.

Where do you suppose the Hostiles got their guns from anyway? From Ben perhaps?

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by Reed

I have read past theories about Dharma "harming" the island so yes that would be reason enough for The Purge. Perhaps we will find out in time just EXACTLY what Dharma were doing on the island and where the island comes into all of this.

Well in EITHER agreeing to The Purge or generating the idea, they seem to suit the name Dharma gave them. But surely we will soon be calling them a new name once [or if] we are given a flashback to the original island inhabitants. It should prove most interesting.

I have also believed that Dharma were probably the victims here. While they are not entirely "good" themselves, I think the Hostiles were "probably" alot worse. However I can sympathise with the Hostiles' aggression toward Dharma in regard to harming their home - the island.

While hestitating to label a mass purge anything approaching 'justified', I think the only way it can come close to that is if it was a pro-active response to a similar plan on the part of Dharma. Perhaps there was some truth in Mikhail's original story - Dharma were planning on wiping out the 'hostiles' once and for all, and the hostiles got wind of the plan and beat them to it in a particularly devastating and all-encompassing way. That would form an interesting parallel to what happened at the end of season 3, when the Losties got wind of the plan to kidnap half of them and murder the rest and pre-empted it with the dynamite plan. This won't, however, count as an excuse for Ben's killing his father, which was clearly done out of revenge ... and Roger seemed totally unaware of any planned violence on the part of Dharma.

Originally Posted by Reed

At this point it is extremely difficult to say who is worse - the Hostiles or Dharma. On the one hand we have Dharma destroying the island. On the other we have the Hostiles murdering an entire colony of people. But somewhere in between did Dharma murder Hostiles?

Yes, that's the key mystery. We need to know Dharma's original motives ... were they blunderingly harming the island or did they know the damage they were doing? And were they planning on doing to the hostiles what the hostiles eventually did to them?

I think it's interesting to note, though, whatever justifications the hostiles felt they may have had for their behaviour at the time (and the existence of any justification is by no means certain), they've really become the thing they professed so much to hate - using Dharma's brainwashing facilities, living in their houses, behaving violently towards people incapable of leaving the island, holding human beings hostage in animal cages, etc. It's a bit of a repeated theme in Lost - Sawyer's becoming like the 'real' Sawyer, Kate's killing her father for fear of turning into him and in the process turning into something just as bad, and now the Others becoming barely distinguishable from their original foes.

Originally Posted by Reed

There are SO many gaps in information it is near impossible to take sides imo. Perhaps the Purge was somewhat justified in terms of "we are not going to take this anymore, you all deserve to perish". Interestingly, Ben had Lethal Poison Gas. An indicator of Dharma's bad intentions?

Very good point - why would Dharma have stocks of poison gas with them in the first place? That makes me believe a little more firmly in the idea that they (the hostiles) were pre-empting a purge by Dharma on themselves.

Originally Posted by Reed

Well the island was uncharted, unknown - and guns would protect Dharma workers if ever needed. Obviously they felt they needed to invade the island due to it's properties/resources and this outweighed the potential dangers of being there - local wildlife as you say. That is like telling explorers not to take rifles to the North Pole in case of being attacked by Polar Bears - which ironically enough is the same environment on the island.

There was an arctic explorer who was killed by a polar bear and yelled out to his team not to shoot it because, in his words, 'it was too beautiful'. Very few people would be that brave and that principled, but it's an amazing sentiment ... and though the temptation to take guns for protection must be enormous, if your stated ethos is to promote harmony, I think it rather behoves the group to shun anything calculated to cause destruction. If it's too dangerous to explore without guns, a group like Dharma might better preserve its principles by cancelling the mission in the first place.

Originally Posted by Reed

I would have thought that Alpert and Co. did try friendly communication, however being told by polite locals to drop a Billion Dollar Research Project you have implemented is quite laughable from Dharma's perspective. What do you mean "find out more from a distance"?

Well, I think I meant retreating out of the immediate area, going back to the mainland and trying to find out from there who on earth the 'hostiles' are, why they're there and if they really ought to be there ... I'm guessing that Dharma would be understandably curious and perhaps concerned to find other people already on the island, but they'd be better off exploring the history of those people in a place where their interference wouldn't be so potentially provocative.

I suppose Alpert might have tried communication first, but if that's so, the Others' MO has changed a lot since those days: no communication was attempted with the 'plane crash survivors.

Originally Posted by Reed

I am sure that if Dharma ever fought back, that it was in "self defence" - judging by the classroom scene with little Ben. While Dharma may advocate Peace & Harmony, this was obviously only feasible if a bunch of crazy island inhabitants are not trying to murder you. Self defence imo.

You cannot remain so peaceful that you are willing to die in the process. That is like saying England should have remained peaceful when the Nazi's were trying to invade the world. Yes Dharma invaded the original inhabitants home, though is not the world a free place? I suppose in alot of circumstances it is not.

I agree that a violent response to Dharma's arrival is not rendered reasonable purely by dint of the hostiles having been there first: they're human beings who've overcome their instincts and presumably have the ability to respond in a non-violent way, ergo it's not right to launch a violent attack on a school just because you don't want it there. But that doesn't mean that Dharma were right to stay. I also don't mean to suggest that people oughtn't to have a right to visit wherever they wish to visit provide they don't intend to do any harm. But Dharma could see that staying was provoking warfare, and regardless of whether or not they triggered it or actively sought it or were simply victims of it, leaving would've solved it, and a company that professes to be seeking harmony should, in my view, let that take precedence over their pride.

Originally Posted by Reed

Of course if the original inhabitants were a very old civilisation then clearly they were always going to go to extreme lengths to protect their land. They were never going to stand for a group to invade their land - their country. The only difference here is that Dharma only wanted to live on the island, as opposed to your typical invasion - taking people hostage, murder, etc.

Yes, possibly. The trouble is that we don't really know enough yet - Alpert speaks American-accented English and integrated well into mainland North America, so how likely is he to be an original inhabitant? And was Dharma happy to merely live there and not to harm the 'hostiles'? I suppose Alpert could be a decendent of whoever manned the Black Rock, brought up by American accented people, which does seem to give him a distinct right to live unmolested in the place more than these more recent arrivals. But yes, obviously communication and organising a means of peacefully co-existing - which Alpert at least seemed capable of - has to be a better route for both groups than lobbing bombs at one another.

Originally Posted by Reed

Where do you suppose the Hostiles got their guns from anyway? From Ben perhaps?

That seems likely, yes. He provided the gas. I would like to know precisely what facilities Alpert and co had before Dharma's arrival though, and how they lived.

[Murgatroyd]

Additional point:

What does Tom's respect for Alvar Hanso ('A great man once said....' indicate? I don't know exactly how Hanso and Dharma fit together, but did he bankroll Dharma or something? Who would Tom refer to the man who bankrolled his own people's stated enemies as 'a great man'?

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Additional point:

What does Tom's respect for Alvar Hanso ('A great man once said....' indicate? I don't know exactly how Hanso and Dharma fit together, but did he bankroll Dharma or something? Who would Tom refer to the man who bankrolled his own people's stated enemies as 'a great man'?

I will reply to the other post soon.

How do you know Tom was referring to Hanso? Well the Orientation tape mentioned Alvar Hanso "spear heading" The Dharma Initiative or something to that effect - quite possibly that he funded it to some extent.

If indeed he was referring to Hanso it does seem strange yes. Perhaps the Others respect Hanso but NOT Dharma? Perhaps Dharma ultimately went against what Hanso had first envisioned the organisation to be/achieve. Perhaps Tom [along with Mikhail] was apart of Dharma which is interesting because he obviously still holds Dharma dear in his heart in spite of trading sides.

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by Reed

I will reply to the other post soon.

How do you know Tom was referring to Hanso? Well the Orientation tape mentioned Alvar Hanso "spear heading" The Dharma Initiative or something to that effect - quite possibly that he funded it to some extent.

If indeed he was referring to Hanso it does seem strange yes. Perhaps the Others respect Hanso but NOT Dharma? Perhaps Dharma ultimately went against what Hanso had first envisioned the organisation to be/achieve. Perhaps Tom [along with Mikhail] was apart of Dharma which is interesting because he obviously still holds Dharma dear in his heart in spite of trading sides.

The quotation - 'From the dawn of our species, Man has been blessed with curiosity' - was used on that mock Hanso Foundation advert that used to air on channel four during the first season of Lost, so I think the indication is that it's likely to be attributable to Alvar Hanso and that Tom was using it with that in mind - but yes, I don't know that this has been specifically confirmed. And yes, your idea sounds convincing - perhaps Dharma used dire methods with a view to furthering what the Others nonetheless consider a fundamentally good purpose (which is kind of how I feel the Others are now behaving in turn).

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

The quotation - 'From the dawn of our species, Man has been blessed with curiosity' - was used on that mock Hanso Foundation advert that used to air on channel four during the first season of Lost, so I think the indication is that it's likely to be attributable to Alvar Hanso and that Tom was using it with that in mind - but yes, I don't know that this has been specifically confirmed. And yes, your idea sounds convincing - perhaps Dharma used dire methods with a view to furthering what the Others nonetheless consider a fundamentally good purpose (which is kind of how I feel the Others are now behaving in turn).

Well perhaps he felt it was a good/appropriate quote to use in spite of Hanso technically being apart of the enemy. It could be a dig at Hanso, in that, his curiosity led to many people dying in The Purge.

Yes, perhaps Hanso had power in terms of money, but not in terms of management. While you would assume funding Dharma would give him complete control, we all know things are more complicated than they seem. I very much doubt he was hands-on, with the possiblity he had NO idea as to how exactly Dharma were achieving their aims.

I am sure he left his Supervisors, Assistants, Upper Management etc, to handle the operation of Dharma. Whom of which turned Dharma into this "environment destroying" organisation.

Well of course your idea there is assuming that the Others continued the work of Dharma.