Time is not Linear..Hence it can be LOST

[D-Roc]

We all know that the Other's recruitment 'cover' group - Mittelos is an anagram for LOST TIME..and whislt I doubt this is a new look on the time idea, i'd like to lay one down anyway, just to catelogue my thoughts and hopefully the thoughts of others.

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Obviously the LOST TIME anagram was intentional..so could it be that the message there is that time has literally been 'LOST' on the island?

The evidence:

-Alpert doesn't appear to age
-Woman cannot conceive on the island without dying
-Desmonds Time travelling experience in 3x08
-Desmonds pre-cog ability which enabled him to 'delay' fate (or play into it's hands depending on your view of things)
-The heavy S1, S2 reference to the 'numbers'. Numbers (imo) = Time = History = Lost time
-The strange time anomylies on the island (eg Hurley's radio)
-Jacob's apparant existence in at least 2 realms (personal opinion)
-The flash-forward

So what i'm wondering is whether time has stopped on the island? Does the island lie on a time fault or alteration of somekind?

However we know that the likes of Ben has aged (as we saw in his flashback)..we can also assume that Aaron as physically aged, since Claire would've noticed had her tiny baba not grown an inch after 6 weeks..

So time does appear to exist on the island..but WHY has it appeared to stop for some? Why does Alpert not age..why can Jacob not fully materialise?

I suspect that the island's time issues revolve around the fact that it contains special properties..perhaps from the dawn of time..properties which are now at odds with the world due to mans meddling with 'time'. I suspect that Dharma's real work on the island involved trying to manipulate time in order to go back an EDIT moments in history/future..the best metaphor for this is their own Dharma Orientation videos which were EDITED and SPLICED together to give a different picture..to hide the truth..

I suspect that part of this groups dubious actions on the island was to (through their meddling) distort time - what they found was that time is not linear..but that time doesn't exist beyond our understanding of it..this caused them to lose moments in time which create dejavu-like edits in history and reinvent memories. When they found themselves defeated and purged, somehow they managed to go forward in time are now coming to reclaim the island.

They meddled in God's work..

"God can't see this island.."

Neither could they..until Jack made that call (or some other 'hidden' reason).

However, one of my belief's is that Dharma-Widmore of the future are coming 'back' to the island.

I also submit that at the end of Season 2..when we see Penny answer the phone to the men in the ice station..Desmond was sleeping next to her..(an old theory of mine but i'd like to rebirth it before I forget)

Time dialation..

Meet the past.

Contributions, further thoughts, alternate thoughts are all welcomed..as is an open mind

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* I haven't explained all of the points I posed above cos i'm pushed for time..i'll expand later.

Later

[Reed]

I am a BIG fan of the time travel issues in Lost and love theories such as this.

I would love to believe all of your statements in this post because should they turn out to be true, it would make for brilliant tv. One thing which is an unavoidable issue is the fact the Survivors have aged over the 3 years Lost has run, while it has not been confirmed the Richard we saw in Ben's flashback was actually him - but rather his father. While Roger Linus aged considerably out of any Lost character we have seen.

Interesting link to the Lost Numbers, we could be onto something regarding their purpose. Perhaps the numbers are "co-ordinates" for/to the space-time continuum which are affecting these time issues on the island? Now they are no longer entered, the island is no longer "time-less"? I [for some reason] agree that Jacob is trapped between worlds, probably because he seemed to "come and go" when we saw him. He seemed "trapped".

The "time fault" concept is very interesting. I think if Mankind were to meddle with time, it would have GREAT consequences - especially if they have not anticipated the implications through hapless research or implications arisen through unexepected/unforseen factors. I think the ultimate way to save Mankind is to time travel, however that is probably the easiest step. The hardest is making changes once you have arrived in the past [or future]. Are you stating the Orientation was editied by someone from the future?

Is the island SO special because it was FIRST land God created? Ok, a little "out there" but interesting nonetheless. I like the de-ja-vu concept that it was the result of time-travel. Even better is that Old Dharma have arrived in the future, that really would be outstanding tv. Though how would Horiss and the Dharma clan know they would be Purged for them to even consider travelling into the future? Perhaps it was a contingency plan.

As you say we as humans were never meant to play God because we do not know the consequences. And yes Ben's comment in S2 about god not seeing the island I think could point to time not existing, and on paper, neither does the island. I think Jack's transmission has not made the island visible but rather whomever is on their way now has co-ordinates. Remember, Naomi did not see an island until her helicopter crashed. SUDDENLY, the island appeared out of nowhere.

I never thought about the Season 2 Finale cliffhanger being a flashback, though for what reason could Penny be trying to find the island?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Reed

I am a BIG fan of the time travel issues in Lost.

Me too..

I would love to believe all of your statements in this post because should they turn out to be true, it would make for brilliant tv. One thing which is an unavoidable issue is the fact the Survivors have aged over the 3 years Lost has run, while it has not been confirmed the Richard we saw in Ben's flashback was actually him - but rather his father. While Roger Linus aged considerably out of any Lost character we have seen.

Yeah, so at least we have some evidence to suggest that time does exist in 'some shape of form' on the island. Good shout re the Alpert we saw in the 3x20 flashback possibly being Richard's father..whilst I still believe it is the saw modern-day Aplert, I am open to it being his pops.

Interesting link to the Lost Numbers, we could be onto something regarding their purpose.

Yeah, i'm pretty sure the numbers tie into the whole 'time' issues on the island. I think they also link into Dharma discovering a secret regarding alrering time. Could be wrong but I might as well throw it out there.

Perhaps the numbers are "co-ordinates" for/to the space-time continuum which are affecting these time issues on the island?

Ah, should've read this bit first! Yes, I agree..I like that alot

Now they are no longer entered, the island is no longer "time-less"? I [for some reason] agree that Jacob is trapped between worlds, probably because he seemed to "come and go" when we saw him. He seemed "trapped".

Interesting connection there..i'll give that some more thought!

Re: Jacob, yes he does seem 'trapped' doesn't he. Almost as if he doesn't have enough juice to quite trancend into this world..which makes me wonder where the rest of him is currently residing? Is he partly in some other realm or Universe? Or perhaps he is still in this world, only existing in it as the island's dead (Boone, Eko, Christian(?)) etc are..

The "time fault" concept is very interesting. I think if Mankind were to meddle with time, it would have GREAT consequences - especially if they have not anticipated the implications through hapless research or implications arisen through unexepected/unforseen factors. I think the ultimate way to save Mankind is to time travel, however that is probably the easiest step. The hardest is making changes once you have arrived in the past [or future]. Are you stating the Orientation was editied by someone from the future?

I agree..if Mankind meddled in time then it could cause havoc with time as we know it - afterall time exists beyong our understanding..who's to be man would **** it up the first time we had the ability to tap into it..

On the otherhand..as you suggest, time travel could potentially be the salvation of man..a way to defeat fate and avoid extingtion, destruction and a whole manner of fated outcomes. It is a way to play fate head on and potentially beat it at it's own game. I guess this is what Desmond did for a while re the whole Charlie situation..only he went back in time and then saw future flashes..so not quite the same but on the same plain if you get me..

Is the island SO special because it was FIRST land God created? Ok, a little "out there" but interesting nonetheless. I like the de-ja-vu concept that it was the result of time-travel. Even better is that Old Dharma have arrived in the future, that really would be outstanding tv. Though how would Horiss and the Dharma clan know they would be Purged for them to even consider travelling into the future? Perhaps it was a contingency plan.

I would certainly agree with the Garden of Eden analogy that you give - The Adam and Eve skeletons also point to that possibility..as do many other themes and apects.

I also like the idea of old Dharma arriving in the future..the opposite of my idea (i think) but it could work just aswell.,and I agree if they could implement it reasonable, it would mae for facinating tv. Obviously it would involve Horiss and the Dharma bigwigs somehow 'pre-empting' their purge..perhaps they had already hacked into time and seen what was about to befall them? Of course this is 'out there' and I don't expect it to materialise this way, but it's good to expand the brain as LOST is such an unpredictable monster

As you say we as humans were never meant to play God because we do not know the consequences. And yes Ben's comment in S2 about god not seeing the island I think could point to time not existing, and on paper, neither does the island. I think Jack's transmission has not made the island visible but rather whomever is on their way now has co-ordinates. Remember, Naomi did not see an island until her helicopter crashed. SUDDENLY, the island appeared out of nowhere.

Agree..I think that the island became momentarily visible when the hatch imploaded. I think that Jack's call gave the Minkowski's the co-ordinates..which would suggest that something else other than lac of visuals is blocking people from coming to the island? I mean, if they already knew where it was (Naomi found it..ok she said the clouds cleared etc, but still..she knew the rough direction..) then perhaps as I mentioned earlier the island was roughly visible after the hatch impoasion, but they just needed to establish 'exactly' where (as in pin pointing it)

I never thought about the Season 2 Finale cliffhanger being a flashback, though for what reason could Penny be trying to find the island?

Yeah, it's a bit out there, as they say, though im thinking that perhaps she is looking for her father..as he could be on the boat with Minkowski..

This requires a leap of faith as there are potential pitfalls, but i'll try and expand on it or develop other possibilities over time..

[charlierocks]

I think time will play a big part in understanding Lost. I've tried to think of a scientific way of proving it but as I was never very good at science I know I never will.
It struck me in S1 when Shannon's Dad died, she was 18 and she was 20 when they crashed. So in just 2 years Jack managed to "fix" Sarah, marry Sarah, annoy Sarah, then get divorced by her. I know Jack can be annoying but surely it would take longer than that to get from dating to divorce. I think he seemed to be sort of over it too by the time we see him looking for Christian.
From the same flashback Desmond hadn't even gone on the boat race either. How long had be been on the island when we met him???

[Reed]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Yeah, so at least we have some evidence to suggest that time does exist in 'some shape of form' on the island. Good shout re the Alpert we saw in the 3x20 flashback possibly being Richard's father..whilst I still believe it is the saw modern-day Aplert, I am open to it being his pops.

Perhaps the Survivors have not aged and the producers will go this route in spite of them looking older. Or they could state they are ageing quicker because they came from the outside world- however Ben nor Jules [for example] have not aged obnormaly fast so perhaps not. Re: Alpert I know it is unlikely but it is possible. I think it would definitely be more interesting if it has been modern-day Alpert all along.

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Yeah, i'm pretty sure the numbers tie into the whole 'time' issues on the island. I think they also link into Dharma discovering a secret regarding alrering time. Could be wrong but I might as well throw it out there.

At first thought it seems ridiculous that an array of numbers could hold ANY significance to anything. But the world is comprised of things beyond our comprehension - and this is Lost afterall. If Dharma can time travel then there is obviously "something" being used to do this - while the numbers are used for this "something" in order to initiate it's activity.

The numbers could link back to the dawn of Man and hold great powers when used the right way. Though "with great power, comes great responsibility" - too bad Dharma never had a chance to watch Spiderman.

Much like the mysterious and unknown nature of a blackhole/wormhole in space, perhaps there is an special area on the island which can alter time but only with using the numbers. With that in mind it would seem strange why the numbers have not been kept top secret.

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Interesting connection there..i'll give that some more thought!

Re: Jacob, yes he does seem 'trapped' doesn't he. Almost as if he doesn't have enough juice to quite trancend into this world..which makes me wonder where the rest of him is currently residing? Is he partly in some other realm or Universe? Or perhaps he is still in this world, only existing in it as the island's dead (Boone, Eko, Christian(?)) etc are..

Of course the majority of theories and ideas are so "out there" but everything is worth a stab at - as Locke proved to Naomi. Sorry, terrible joke. I would like to think now the Swan is gone, there were/are big consequences minus the sky turning purple. Surely ALL that electromagnetism did something?

Also the fact Jacob's vocabulary was limited, though this was perhaps for the show's benefit - to keep him mysterious. Maybe it is my imagination, but he seemed to struggle saying "help me". Is it possible Jacob lies in between several or a million variations of the Survivor's reality?

Perhaps in one reality, Hurley swam off the island while Sawyer became a fierce bad guy? Random examples but you get the picture. If true, then Jacob is privy to MANY worlds and he has chosen ONE particular one [the one we see in Lost] because he wishes to change things?

Time travel has always indicated [to me atleast] that there is an endless number of alternate realities all going off in different directions. Or perhaps they all lie on the same "line" and Jacob's entity exists in each and he is changing/altering events in each reality to reach one goal? Very powerful stuff.

But all of that aside, if we kept this basic then Jacob could simply be trapped in this world and in the afterlife as are Ghosts - transparent entities which "come and go".

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

I agree..if Mankind meddled in time then it could cause havoc with time as we know it - afterall time exists beyong our understanding..who's to be man would **** it up the first time we had the ability to tap into it..

On the otherhand..as you suggest, time travel could potentially be the salvation of man..a way to defeat fate and avoid extingtion, destruction and a whole manner of fated outcomes. It is a way to play fate head on and potentially beat it at it's own game. I guess this is what Desmond did for a while re the whole Charlie situation..only he went back in time and then saw future flashes..so not quite the same but on the same plain if you get me..

I am sure such meddling would cause unrepairable "rips and tears" in time and space. How exactly, I am unsure of. I would highly doubt Man could ever contemplate every "nook and cranny" of such a dangerous experiment and would ultimately encounter problems.

I am struggling to remember alot of the Desmond-Flashes episode debates [before I joined this site] but I believe I thought Desmond did NOT time travel - he simply had a dream. If he did time travel then surely he would have remembered his time on the island instead of experiencing flashes? Though it can be argued either way quite frankly as it was at the time.

In any event, yes it is comparable to Desmond's ability because he changed the future for the better - or atleast that was the aim. It is just an example of how time travel can go terribly bad as thanks to changing the future, Desmond has now brought Naomi's people on their way - whom according to Ben - are very bad news indeed.

It just puts into perspective actual time travel because greater changes can be made. Remember, Desmond faced an uphill battle trying to save Charlie because it was Desmond Vs Fate - and Fate would stop at nothing to kill Charlie. Atleast a time traveller could make changes without a force working against him or her.

But yes if Man could time travel the greatest task would be going about making changes and convincing people [who would believe you are crazy] that things must or must not happen because something bad will happen otherwise. Of course this would be alot easier on the island because changes could be made without said convincing.

Originally Posted by Kor-evo

I would certainly agree with the Garden of Eden analogy that you give - The Adam and Eve skeletons also point to that possibility..as do many other themes and apects.

I also like the idea of old Dharma arriving in the future..the opposite of my idea (i think) but it could work just aswell.,and I agree if they could implement it reasonable, it would mae for facinating tv. Obviously it would involve Horiss and the Dharma bigwigs somehow 'pre-empting' their purge..perhaps they had already hacked into time and seen what was about to befall them? Of course this is 'out there' and I don't expect it to materialise this way, but it's good to expand the brain as LOST is such an unpredictable monster

Perhaps being the very first land God [or whomever] created, this could explain why the island is so special.

I think you were the one who came up with the "Dharma-future arrival" idea. Fascinating indeed, not to mention Ben's expression upon Horiss returning. One has to wonder whether or not Dharma had come THAT far along right before they were all murdered. Of course we do not know what went on behind closed doors, and I would imagine in the time Ben grew up in his flashback [around 30 years] that Dharma opened the time travel door.

Nice idea about seeing the future Purge - though you have to think why did they not stop it in the first place if they forsaw it. Perhaps it was a contingency plan which as it happens, turns out they needed to use. If indeed true, they must have travelled before Ben set his [Purge] plan in motion. Yes I think this entire thread is "out there" - quite amusing actually but I love this kind of discussing because it is what Lost is all about imo. It really gets the imagination going.

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Agree..I think that the island became momentarily visible when the hatch imploaded. I think that Jack's call gave the Minkowski's the co-ordinates..which would suggest that something else other than lac of visuals is blocking people from coming to the island? I mean, if they already knew where it was (Naomi found it..ok she said the clouds cleared etc, but still..she knew the rough direction..) then perhaps as I mentioned earlier the island was roughly visible after the hatch impoasion, but they just needed to establish 'exactly' where (as in pin pointing it)

Reminds me, hopefully this is the Season Penny and her friends come to the island - could tie in nicely with Naomi's people arriving. But why do you suppose the island was only momentarily visible and not permanetly visible? I agree, this Minkowski fellow did seem to refer to co-ordinates, so I suppose you are correct regarding the island NOT being visible anymore.

I am not sure how Naomi found the island but I would presume her people had an idea as to where it was and she stumbled across it. I cannot recall her conversation with the Survivors but was she even looking for the island? This could be a nice discussion in itself.

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Yeah, it's a bit out there, as they say, though im thinking that perhaps she is looking for her father..as he could be on the boat with Minkowski..

This requires a leap of faith as there are potential pitfalls, but i'll try and expand on it or develop other possibilities over time..

By flashback did you mean a flashback pre-island? Judging from S3 events obviously Penny is looking for Desmond - why would she be looking for her father? It is definitely worth discussing as anything is possible here.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by charlierocks

I think time will play a big part in understanding Lost. I've tried to think of a scientific way of proving it but as I was never very good at science I know I never will.
It struck me in S1 when Shannon's Dad died, she was 18 and she was 20 when they crashed. So in just 2 years Jack managed to "fix" Sarah, marry Sarah, annoy Sarah, then get divorced by her. I know Jack can be annoying but surely it would take longer than that to get from dating to divorce. I think he seemed to be sort of over it too by the time we see him looking for Christian.
From the same flashback Desmond hadn't even gone on the boat race either. How long had be been on the island when we met him???

That could be just plot inaccuracies which I can forgive the producers for given all they have to think about regarding storylines. But I have never given much thought to the timelines in Lost because it is very confusing. I suppose alot can happen in 2 years. I am sure Jack had alot on his mind when finding his father - but I am sure he was still hurting inside from the whole Sarah thing.

I seem to think it was 3 years that Desmond had been on the island when Locke broke into the Hatch - I am not sure where I got that from. I recall Desmond saying he had not been outside in around 2 years because Kelvin would not let him. A few weeks later after killing Kelvin, Locke met Desmond. so I would bet Desmond had been on the island for 2-3 years.

[-x-madegurl-x-]

i think that's a great theory rocco.
one thing inparticular that leads me to believe this theory is true is the way that, in the flashforward, noone seemed to act out of the ordinary with jack. they just treated him like any other individual. so had time stopped, then they would never have known he'd been missing.

although penny looking for the island appears to be the only slip-up.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by madegurl

i think that's a great theory rocco.
one thing inparticular that leads me to believe this theory is true is the way that, in the flashforward, noone seemed to act out of the ordinary with jack. they just treated him like any other individual. so had time stopped, then they would never have known he'd been missing.

although penny looking for the island appears to be the only slip-up.

Jack only came across one face from the past - which was Sarah. She was strangely shaken up and was pregnant - evidence time has passed. She seemed to realise Jack was depressed and asked why he was on the bridge. She seemed to think he may have been about to commit suicide. But it is a nice theory that time had not passed in the real world.

There was also reference to Jack being a two-time hero by Rob the new Chief of Surgery. The guy in the line at the Pharmacy also said Jack was a hero and was reacting as though Jack had saved the world - "Lady do you know who this guy is!?, just give him whatever he wants!". Evidence that the world knew Jack was missing.

To support your theory, KoR-evo mentioned the S2 Finale scene with Penny could have been a flashback and that she was looking for the island prior to Desmond crashing on it. By being a flashback this supports the theory that time has not passed in the real world - I am actually confused now.

[-x-madegurl-x-]

it doesn't matter if it was someone from the past... if he was a big hero for saving them all then anybody would be so nice to him. but like you said about the guy in the pharmacy..he may've been talking about jack being a hero in that sense.. but what jack did on that bridge would've been pretty big news, and a lot of people would've heard about it.

sarah being pregnant, that may've happened since jack returned home. we don't know how long after his returned the flash-forward was.

the scene with penny that i'm referring to is when she was talking to charlie in S3.