"Thats the Spirit"

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior,October 12, 2006 05:43 pm

Here's the transcript of that scene:

[We see Gale reading in the armory. Jack enters.]
JACK: How is it?
GALE [reading from the book]: Men reject their prophets and slay them, but they love their martyrs and honor those whom they have slain. [to Jack] So what's the difference between a martyr and a prophet?
JACK: Either way, it sounds like you end up dead.
GALE: That's the spirit.

St. Anger I agree with you in that Henry wasn't in a very optimistic frame of mind, and when Jack talked about ending up dead he could have been unintentionally mirroring Henry's thoughts at the time.

First off - i just love that scene..it's one of my many favourites from S2

I see your interpretation and i can understand where youre coming from. I guess we just see it differently, which is cool Personally i think Henry has been testing and gauging Locke and Jack's (in particular) reactions since he was captured/brought in. I think that whilst the stakes have been very real for Henry (ie death by bullet, foot pounding, torture etc :P ), he has also been testing them. Afterall, why else would he get caught? Anyway, this is one of the reasons why i think he was relatively suprised/impressed with jack's response. (i believe) he expected Jack to be less blunt about his assessment of such a quandry. I also believe that HG see's himself of somewhat if a prophet and his group as martyrs and so he found irony in the fact that there he was chained to a bed, reading about prophets and martyrs, when the very man who held his life in his hands was indicating that such people end up dead. So in a sense HG was impressed by Jack's summisation as it was clinical (and almost scientific)..yet he was sarcastic because of the irony of the situation, imo.

But i do agree that yours and St.Angers interpretation could also be the correct one

[St. Anger]

Hmmm, odd that he sacrificed himself though. It is funny how he as given 'that' book.

Less blunt? Jack was very blunt though. Jack didn't really engage much, as usual, Jacko is always lost for words lol.

Although it was a well thought out answer I guess

I'm pretty sure Jack actually paused for a moment when Henry asked him didn't he?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by St. Anger (o'_'o),October 12, 2006 07:35 pm

Hmmm, odd that he sacrificed himself though. It is funny how he as given 'that' book.

Less blunt? Jack was very blunt though. Jack didn't really engage much, as usual, Jacko is always lost for words lol.

Although it was a well thought out answer I guess

I'm pretty sure Jack actually paused for a moment when Henry asked him didn't he?

Yeah..its very odd that he was given that specific book. I suspect that he's probably read it before..down the hatch even..

I said that HG 'expected' Jack to be less blunt..not that Jack 'was' less blunt

I think Jack did indeed pause for a second or two..though his answer was very unwavering..

Btw, his convo with Jack regarding prophets and martyrs was quite similar to his convo with Locke regarding geniuses and being in the shadow of a genius.. hmm..what was HG trying to achieve i wonder? Was he simply trying to get into their heads..testing them and that?..or was his objective more specific

[St. Anger]

In a very Joey-esque moment, I'm going to ask you what the heck "unwavering" means I have a hunch though

So you thought Henry believed Jack would've sort of either not answered him, or told Henry to be quiet. As opposed to actually giving a meaningful answer.

I think Henry is a very interlectual man and so that was his idea of a normal conversation. It also meant that he would lighten the bad vibe in the hatch [as relates to his capture], as well as create 'any' sort of conversation to begin with. Lets face it, no one really wanted to have a normal convo' with the man, they only wanted to poke him with a proverbial stick.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by St. Anger (o'_'o),October 12, 2006 08:05 pm

In a very Joey-esque moment, I'm going to ask you what the heck "unwavering"  means    I have a hunch though   

So you thought Henry believed Jack would've sort of either not answered him, or told Henry to be quiet. As opposed to actually giving a meaningful answer.

I think Henry is a very interlectual man and so that was his idea of a normal conversation.  It also meant that he would lighten the bad vibe in the hatch [as relates to his capture], as well as create 'any' sort of conversation to begin with.  Lets face it, no one really wanted to have a normal convo' with the man, they only wanted to poke him with a proverbial stick.

Unwavering means without hesitation/doubt or without holding back..resolute (in terms of Jacks actual answer). Well, thats the way i applied the use of the word in my above post

No, i dont think that HG expected Jack to tell him to be quiet of to not give him a meanningful answer..i suppose i think that HG expected a more considered answer from Jack..one that wasnt so realistic, as it were. Because remember for much of S2 Jack had been accused of not living in the real word (or something like that) and of not facing the truth.. ..I suspect that HG knows all about Jack prior to the island and was therefore expecting a more 'cotton candy' (or sugar coated) answer..

I agree that HG is an intellectual man and that his field of intellect spans many levels. I dont disagree with you there. You could be right though, perhaps HG was trying to lighten the mood in hope of avoiding further 'punishment'..

[St. Anger]

Hey, no worries, thats what it's all about..different views and perspectives!* It's like life really..we all see things differently and thats one of the beautiful things about Lost..it give us real life issues/processes in a fantasy format*

As Lawrence from Office Space once said "F***** A man!" 3 years of Uni has turned me into a man who swears often. Sorry.

perhaps HG was trying to lighten the mood in hope of avoiding further 'punishment'..

Hmmm, yeh I guess that he possibly was. Afterall, nobody liked him at that point, not even Locke [before Lockdown incident].

As for expecting a more in-depth answer from Jack, it would seem Henry knows nothing about "One-Line-Jacko".

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,October 12, 2006 07:18 pm

Originally Posted by KoRevo

I see your interpretation and i can understand where youre coming from. I guess we just see it differently, which is cool   Personally i think Henry has been testing and gauging Locke and Jack's (in particular) reactions since he was captured/brought in. I think that whilst the stakes have been very real for Henry (ie death by bullet, foot pounding, torture etc :P ), he has also been testing them. Afterall, why else would he get caught? Anyway, this is one of the reasons why i think he was relatively suprised/impressed with jack's response. (i believe) he expected Jack to be less blunt about his assessment of such a quandry. I also believe that HG see's himself of somewhat if a prophet and his group as martyrs and so he found irony in the fact that there he was chained to a bed, reading about prophets and martyrs, when the very man who held his life in his hands was indicating that such people end up dead. So in a sense HG was impressed by Jack's summisation as it was clinical (and almost scientific)..yet he was sarcastic because of the irony of the situation, imo.

But i do agree that yours and St.Angers interpretation could also be the correct one

I agree with you in that Henry no doubt was pushing Jack and Locke to see how far they would react to his loaded comments to them, and was testing how they would respond to him and also how they would treat him as a prisoner. But whether he got himself caught on purpose in order to carry out those assesments or genuinely got caught and seized the opportunity to carry them out remains to be seen.

I also agree with your observation that Henry was probably aware of the irony of his situation, and so his response of 'that's the spirit' was laced with sarcasm. He had been reading about prophets and martyrs while he considers, to an extent, that he and his group are such people, and that someone (Jack) who first of all treated his arrow wound (and so could well have saved his life) then changed attitude and (quite possibly in Henry's view) approved Sayid torturing him is now commenting on people ending up dead.

However I still think that Henry was not very surprised or impressed by Jack's response of ending up dead, and was half expecting Jack to kill the conversation early with a bleak response. He could have said 'that's the spirit' in the sense that Jack was merely living up to Henry's expectations of him: like when someone participates in something you could sometimes say 'that's the spirit!' in order to encourage them to keep at it, and Henry's use of the phrase was a sarcastic way of stating the opposite.

I think Henry would have been surprised and grudgingly impressed if Jack had responded with a proper answer, or even asked Henry what he thought the difference was. After Jack's less than saintly treatment of him, I think it would have thrown Henry if Jack had sought out his opinion, was interested in what Henry had to say about the issue, and was actually engaging in a normal conversation with him.

But your interpretation also could very well be the correct one.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior,October 14, 2006 01:45 pm

I agree with you in that Henry no doubt was pushing Jack and Locke to see how far they would react to his loaded comments to them, and was testing how they would respond to him and also how they would treat him as a prisoner. But whether he got himself caught on purpose in order to carry out those assesments or genuinely got caught and seized the opportunity to carry them out remains to be seen.

I also agree with your observation that Henry was probably aware of the irony of his situation, and so his response of 'that's the spirit' was laced with sarcasm. He had been reading about prophets and martyrs while he considers, to an extent, that he and his group are such people, and that someone (Jack) who first of all treated his arrow wound (and so could well have saved his life) then changed attitude and (quite possibly in Henry's view) approved Sayid torturing him is now commenting on people ending up dead.

However I still think that Henry was not very surprised or impressed by Jack's response of ending up dead, and was half expecting Jack to kill the conversation early with a bleak response. He could have said 'that's the spirit' in the sense that Jack was merely living up to Henry's expectations of him: like when someone participates in something you could sometimes say 'that's the spirit!' in order to encourage them to keep at it, and Henry's use of the phrase was a sarcastic way of stating the opposite.

I think Henry would have been surprised and grudgingly impressed if Jack had responded with a proper answer, or even asked Henry what he thought the difference was. After Jack's less than saintly treatment of him, I think it would have thrown Henry if Jack had sought out his opinion, was interested in what Henry had to say about the issue, and was actually engaging in a normal conversation with him.

But your interpretation also could very well be the correct one.

Youre right to re-raise the question of whether HG genuinely got caught or whether he opportunistically planned the whole thing. In some respects i suppose it could be argued with near certainty that he did indeed get caught by accident, because Mrs K told Mike that 'the situation had changed due to the losties capturing one of her people' - thus suggesting that HG didnt intend to get caught. However, we know by now not to trust everything that comes out of Mrs K's (or her peoples) mouth.. :P

So i still think it's possible that HG planned to get caught. I mean, he's a mastermind..how can a mastermind get caught in a 2-bit Rousseau trap? But then, how can a mastermind be so clumsey as to render himself unconcious when climbing a few shelves? Ah..because he's a mastermind..everything was planned. Form him getting captured by "that woman" to him knocking himself out in the pantry to them pretending that HG got captured out of the blue.. Well, thats what i think at this moment in time :P

This is an interesting debate. I can see your interpretation but i cant quite reach out and embrace it (if you know what i mean? :P )..for me HG was both pleasantly suprised and impressed with Jack's response. It's almost as if he learned something new about Jack that day (imo).

Kelvin said "thats the spirit" to Des, when he said he 'couldnt let go'..now i reckon that HG's "thats the spirit" response to Jack, was because he was impressed by Jack being able to let go and open his eye's to realism..

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by KoRevo

Youre right to re-raise the question of whether HG genuinely got caught or whether he opportunistically planned the whole thing. In some respects i suppose it could be argued with near certainty that he did indeed get caught by accident, because Mrs K told Mike that 'the situation had changed due to the losties capturing one of her people' - thus suggesting that HG didnt intend to get caught. However, we know by now not to trust everything that comes out of Mrs K's (or her peoples) mouth.. :P

So i still think it's possible that HG planned to get caught. I mean, he's a mastermind..how can a mastermind get caught in a 2-bit Rousseau trap?   But then, how can a mastermind be so clumsey as to render himself unconcious when climbing a few shelves? Ah..because he's a mastermind..everything was planned. Form him getting captured by "that woman" to him knocking himself out in the pantry to them pretending that HG got captured out of the blue.. Well, thats what i think at this moment in time :P

I think that it does seem a bit unlikely that a person as clever as Henry would be caught in one of Danielle's make shift traps, and I'd wager that Henry and the Others know a lot about the people on the island and what they do, so I'm sure they must have, at the very least, a general idea that the French woman living in the jungle has set traps around the place.

It's interesting because Ms Klugh did give off the impression that Henry's capture was not on the agenda, but that then makes me wonder if Henry had even told her, or anyone else, about his plan to get captured and taken to the losties? (Assuming that he did plan to).

Perhaps he thought that if he wanted a job done he had better do it himself: Ethan had failed to stay undercover for very long thanks to the discovery on the manifest, and he had also failed to keep Claire and the baby in the medical hatch. Also Goodwin no doubt still had more of his mission to complete, but met his end thanks to Ana-Lucia, and Henry probably wasn't happy that the two Others that Eko killed had failed to complete their job. So maybe he decided to go it alone to do whatever he had to do with our losties, and either lied to Ms Klugh and the Others about what he was up to, or failed to mention anything at all. But then again, maybe Henry did tell some that he was going to get caught, and Ms Klugh simply put on a fake show of surprise/concern to Michael about one of their people getting captured, and that getting the people on the list was all part of Henry's plan.

However that doesn't fit in well with Henry's statement to Michael on the pier about him not being happy with the arrangements with him while he was gone, so for now I reckon that Henry either really did get captured by accident but was intelligent enough to use the situation to his advantage, or that he did plan to get captured but just didn't tell his people what he was up to.

Originally Posted by KoRevo

This is an interesting debate. I can see your interpretation but i cant quite reach out and embrace it (if you know what i mean? :P )..for me HG was both pleasantly suprised and impressed with Jack's response. It's almost as if he learned something new about Jack that day (imo).

Yes it is an interesting debate, and even more so when there are different interpretations of a scene or choice of words, but I still don't read any surprise or admiration in Henry's comment to Jack. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!

Originally Posted by KoRevo

Kelvin said "thats the spirit" to Des, when he said he 'couldnt let go'..now i reckon that HG's "thats the spirit" response to Jack, was because he was impressed by Jack being able to let go and open his eye's to realism..

I think that the phrase 'that's the spirit' is, although a re-occuring one, is meant diffently in those two scenes with different characters. I got the impression that Henry wasn't impressed or surpised that Jack had taken such a dark outlook to his question, and was instead sarcastically congratulating Jack on his predictable reply, but again we'll just have to disagree on this!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior,October 14, 2006 06:12 pm

I think that it does seem a bit unlikely that a person as clever as Henry would be caught in one of Danielle's make shift traps, and I'd wager that Henry and the Others know a lot about the people on the island and what they do, so I'm sure they must have, at the very least, a general idea that the French woman living in the jungle has set traps around the place.

It's interesting because Ms Klugh did give off the impression that Henry's capture was not on the agenda, but that then makes me wonder if Henry had even told her, or anyone else, about his plan to get captured and taken to the losties? (Assuming that he did plan to).

Perhaps he thought that if he wanted a job done he had better do it himself: Ethan had failed to stay undercover for very long thanks to the discovery on the manifest, and he had also failed to keep Claire and the baby in the medical hatch. Also Goodwin no doubt still had more of his mission to complete, but met his end thanks to Ana-Lucia, and Henry probably wasn't happy that the two Others that Eko killed had failed to complete their job. So maybe he decided to go it alone to do whatever he had to do with our losties, and either lied to Ms Klugh and the Others about what he was up to, or failed to mention anything at all. But then again, maybe Henry did tell some that he was going to get caught, and Ms Klugh simply put on a fake show of surprise/concern to Michael about one of their people getting captured, and that getting the people on the list was all part of Henry's plan.

However that doesn't fit in well with Henry's statement to Michael on the pier about him not being happy with the arrangements with him while he was gone, so for now I reckon that Henry either really did get captured by accident but was intelligent enough to use the situation to his advantage, or that he did plan to get captured but just didn't tell his people what he was up to.

Yes it is an interesting debate, and even more so when there are different interpretations of a scene or choice of words, but I still don't read any surprise or admiration in Henry's comment to Jack. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!

I think that the phrase 'that's the spirit' is, although a re-occuring one, is meant diffently in those two scenes with different characters. I got the impression that Henry wasn't impressed or surpised that Jack had taken such a dark outlook to his question, and was instead sarcastically congratulating Jack on his predictable reply, but again we'll just have to disagree on this!

Yeah, i agree on that point - The Others certainly know of Rousseau and her situation..afterall, they did take her child from her (although i do believe that there is more to that story...just a hunch that we dont yet know the whole truth)

Personally i think that HG did tell his people that he planned to get caught (assuming it was intnetional), because i cant see him just wondering off and getting caught without telling them of his intentions..unless he's HIM..as him would have to tell anyone what he's doping since, well, hes the bossman. (btw, im not saying HG is HiM ). I accept that your idea about him wanting to get the job done properly and so doing it himself, is a good one..but i just feel that the Mrs K put on a show of suprise when informing Mike that 'theres been a development'. Afterall, HG got caught after Mike..which seems to imply that the others planned the entire thing. Also, they were (presumably) watching the HG/Lostie situation on the monitors all that time so by the time they informed Mike of the development, HG had been in captivety for some time - why would they wait so long before telling Mike of this so called 'development'?

Also regarding Henry saying that he wasnt happy with the arrangement made in his absence..well, he could have been referring to a host of things, so this doesnt mean that the whole thing wasnt planned. Because there might have been one detail that his people didnt follow throught correctly or something that they did which wasnt part of his directives..like agreeing to give Walt back..or adding Hurely to the list, for example. Remember, HG wasnt happy that Goodwin thought he could change Ana..now maybe someone like Mrs K believed that Hurley could be saved and so she added him to the list off her own back and didnt stick to the 3 people who HG originally ordered her to put on the list? Perhaps this was what HG wasnt happy about? (or something along those lines..)

As for the "thats the spirit" debate..you may well be correct. It's just that i see suprise in HG's reaction. You know..not major suprise as he concealed it well, but i do dectect a hint of suprise. I also think that he was impressed with how far Jack has come in his journey. Also, bear in mind that if (as i suspect) Christian is linked to Dharma/the island/or Hanso..then Henry's reaction may take o even more meaning....

But i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this aspect