Can Sawyer Redeem Himself/Will Sun forgive him?

[Easily confused]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

The trouble with the above is that we've seen it all before - everyone was pleased to see Sawyer when he came back from the raft disaster, and someone (Kate, I think) pointed out that everybody loved him now. And then he had Charlie whack Sun over the head and stole all the guns. He doesn't react well to people not thinking badly of him, so there's always the danger that he'll cycle back round to being the Sawyer of old.

I think he didn't believe it all the first time when he came back from raft disaster and now he is realising that he does fit in however hard he tries not to

[Kiowa Warrior]

Sun may forgive in order to try and draw a line under the situation, but she'll never forget, and so I think she'll always be more on her guard with Sawyer and Charlie in the future. I reckon she's more likely to be more open and forgiving towards Charlie than to Sawyer, because Charlie did show genuine remorse whereas Sawyer didn't make a big apology to her or anything...and I think she blames Sawyer more, because she slapped him and just walked away from Charlie! Although she was probably in shock after hearing Charlie's confession.

And yes Sawyer made the effort with various people, but it's not as if he did it out of the pure goodness of his heart...he was only acting like that because if he did so he believed it would ultimately benefit himself. But I really would like to see Sawyer change more for the better, and realise that helping others is the way to go, instead of his everyman attitude.

[Easily confused]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior

And yes Sawyer made the effort with various people, but it's not as if he did it out of the pure goodness of his heart...he was only acting like that because if he did so he believed it would ultimately benefit himself. But I really would like to see Sawyer change more for the better, and realise that helping others is the way to go, instead of his everyman attitude.

I would like to see that too

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior

And yes Sawyer made the effort with various people, but it's not as if he did it out of the pure goodness of his heart...he was only acting like that because if he did so he believed it would ultimately benefit himself.

I think that's very true, but I'd also say that the exception was Sun - we had a lot of these awkward shots of Sawyer looking genuinely uncomfortable when he saw that he couldn't make Sun think well of him. So while his motive in making Claire think well of him was preventing his being moved along the beach, I think he genuinely wanted Sun to think of him as a human being without actually having an ulterior motive.

[E Pluribus Unum]

I suppose a third question you could ask is: if, eventually, Sun was to forgive him/he was to redeem himself - would he be able to forgive himself? Presuming the remorse and guilt we've seen from Sawyer (last ep) was genuine, how would he react to being forgiven for this? I mean, Sawyer is used to doing immoral things - conning for example - but he's rarely around afterwoods to face up to what he's done (except during one of his first Flashbacks where he saw the kid and legged it) - but that 'if I don't see the after effects; it didn't happen' out look seems to be a method Sawyer users to avoid his guilt - it's impossible to do now, with Sun stuck on an island with him, but I think 'prolonged' guilt may actually make Sawyer a 'better' person...

Presume he can do something few of the Losties have been able to do; and actually grow as a person...

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

I think that's very true, but I'd also say that the exception was Sun - we had a lot of these awkward shots of Sawyer looking genuinely uncomfortable when he saw that he couldn't make Sun think well of him. So while his motive in making Claire think well of him was preventing his being moved along the beach, I think he genuinely wanted Sun to think of him as a human being without actually having an ulterior motive.

Yeah that is true - Sawyer did seem pretty uncomfortable looking at Sun, and I think he does want her to at least think differently of him for the best, if not outright forgive her. But I think Sawyer would be more successful in trying to win back Sun's goodwill by doing a good deed directly for her - ideally one that puts himself out - rather than doing general good things and hoping that she will see his remorse in that. I think she deserves something special after all she's been through!

[JB Sawyer]

Can Sawyer truly redeem himself? I doubt it. Remember this man is so tormented by his inner demons, he needs to do these acts to make people hate him. He needs to con, he needs to offend, because he wants people to hate him. He hates himself to such an extent, for becoming the man that ruined his own life, that the only way to redeem himself is to take that man's life, and if not his own. He's only human however, so he will feel sorry for Sun, he will show remorse, and he does want her to know that he is genuinely sorry. But it's only a matter of time before he needs to do something else to vent his self-loathing. It may not be to the extent of the Sun con, but it will come. The only time he will ever truly redeem himself is either on his or Cooper's deathbed.

Can Sun forgive him? I doubt that too. I don't believe it was so much the act itself, despite it being obviously terrible, but more the fact she was used again and had no choice. She was used to following orders, used to being the contained fragile flower of a woman. By shooting Colleen she finally found some sort of power (wrong word), but she found that she didn't have to be ordered around. However, now finding that it was Sawyer and Charlie, she's found that she was used again by men. So forgiveness ain't gonna come easy for Tokyo Rose.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

I'd argue against the notion that Sun is at all vengeful... barring her slapping Sawyer - which I can't deny he'd very much earned - I don't think we've ever seen her act on a vengeful feeling, which is more than you can say for many of the Losties.

..she also executed Colleen. And she might have killed Jae Lee. She's capable alright

[Easily confused]

Originally Posted by JB_Sawyer

.
By shooting Colleen she finally found some sort of power (wrong word), but she found that she didn't have to be ordered around. However, now finding that it was Sawyer and Charlie, she's found that she was used again by men. So forgiveness ain't gonna come easy for Tokyo Rose.

Are you saying she didn't have a problem shooting Colleen because she thought the Others had attacked her (she felt she was getting revenge) and now she is feeling guilty for shooting her now she knows it was nothing to do with the Others ?

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

..she also executed Colleen. And she might have killed Jae Lee. She's capable alright

She shot Colleen because Colleen, who was planning on refusing to release Sun from this boat the Others had unlawfully taken and were now parading about on with guns, stepped towards her while she had her very jumpy trigger finger on the trigger, and because she equated being taken by the Others with execution. I don't think revenge was any description of a motive.

And she didn't kill Jae Lee: that line of speculation was nixed by the producers along with the nanobot cloud.

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by Easily confused

Are you saying she didn't have a problem shooting Colleen because she thought the Others had attacked her (she felt she was getting revenge) and now she is feeling guilty for shooting her now she knows it was nothing to do with the Others ?

No not really. What I'm saying is that Sun had always been oppressed right? By her father, her mother and to a certain extent Jin. She had always followed orders. I think she shot Colleen due to Coll saying "You won't shoot me Sun". Sun, not wanting to follow orders again, not wanting to be used again, finally found it within herself to break free of the orders and shoot Colleen. And no, I honestly don't feel Sun does feel guilty. But now that Sun has found out that Sawyer and Charlie used her in the Long Con, she's gone back to being used, and therefore can't forgive Sawyer.