Sayid praying on the boat…

[Audio Pineapple]

So far we have seen clear indications of Catholicism faith in Charlie and Eko, and even Scientific faith in Jack and Destiny faith in Locke but something that stood out at me in LTDA was that we saw Sayid praying, when he was on the boat with Jin and Sun.

Why did the writers draw attention to his faith at this moment? To my recollection (which may be wrong, feel free to correct me) we have only ever seen him praying once before and that was in Sydney, when he was at the mosque trying to ‘bump into’ Essam.

Is religion being portrayed as something that people turn to in times of desperation? In the Sydney incident he may have been praying, but it seemed to be very specific that he would meet Essam there. Obviously wanting to find Nadia, was this desperation being emitted alongside religion as has been done many times in Lost – Charlie’s desperation for his drugs has caused him to destroy the Virgin Mary statues and therefore desecrate his beliefs and Jack was desperate for Sarah to be ‘fixed’ and she was, restoring not only his faith in science but possibly opening his mind up to other beliefs.

Or is religion being portrayed as futility or a dangerous substance? Sayid failed to reach Nadia, despite the prayers… Charlie has suffered via his religion, sacrificing it to pursue a life of hedonism with Liam… Eko’s false religion caused the death of Yemi… and with the most recent instance, Sayid was unable to rescue Kate, Sawyer and Jack.

Or is religion being portrayed as providing hope? Sayid hoped to find Nadia and he hoped to mount his rescue at the beach. Charlie hoped that rekindling his faith would give him back his power over heroin and the chance to regain his friendship with Claire. Eko appears to have hoped that, in becoming a priest, he has gained forgiveness from Yemi and Locke’s blind, absolute faith that the button was real, followed by his blind, absolute faith that the button was not real helped him to uphold his hope that he has a destiny, a higher purpose.

So, what does anyone think?

[Cavegirl]

I don't know if it means anything, except that people turn to their faiths at odd times. Those who haven't turned to a specific religion, I presume never had one? It was a strange scene on the boat, as Sayid had not prayed (so far as we know) since the crash. Perhaps, having convinced himself that torturing Henry was the right thing to do, Sayid now feels ready to stand before god and be judged again - unlike when he committed his other acts of torture, where he clearly felt deep shame and regret.

[Audio Pineapple]

That's an interesting point about how he might now believe that he is right to have tortured Henry this time - and I think that its safe to assume he wasn't just going to let Michael run away if his plan to meet them on the beach had succeeded.

Although perhaps he was praying for forgiveness of what he was planning to do.

[D-Roc]

Just to point point out that we have actually seen Sayid preying before the Sydney flashback - in 'Solitary' when he got caught in Rousseaus trap he was praying then.

So (using the above instance) to give you my take on this i think that faith is being depicted as something that people turn to in times of despair or peril. It offers hope..light at the end of the tunnel. In a way faith is very much like a Deus ex Machina, in that it give us something miraculous to hope for..it enables those who believe to hold on to the thought that some unexpected resolution can come alone and help us at any point.

However i also feel that faith is depicted in Lost in many forms. Aswell as strengthening, faith can also weaken. ..What is your faith is all you have..what if faith is the only support beam that a person has? Well..this has been beautifully depicted with Locke. Weve seen how once his faith was lost he was no longer the man he once was..he had nothing left...nothing but anger, frustration and confusion - the very thing that once made him strong..had weakened him. However, sometimes we need to see to believe..we need proof at times..and this is now what Locke has been given. He now knows that the button is important and so i feel that his faith will be restored once more.

It's a funny old thing is faith..it has many colours and variations..and i feel that Lost is depicting the whole faith spectrum.

[The_other_other]

I disagree korevo. I think faith is used differently by each character in lost. Sayid does seem to turn to it in times of need (like many people) while with other characters like eko and charlie it was always there, it was just waiting to be opened up. Locke is a prime example of needing encouragement for his faith to grow. This therefore constantly sets him up for falls and highs.

We dont really know much about anyone else, and although there have been hints about what Rose and jack believe, it hasnt really been confirmed. Jack hasnt actually said 'i believe only in science' and Rose seemed pretty skeptical in her flashback.

[E Pluribus Unum]

I think there's a huge difference between what we might see as religion and faith. Before this show started I would have put faith and religion together, hand in hand. But I think faith means more to people than religion. Everyone has faith, some people [a la Jack] seems to ignore it and concentrate on what's real and 'tangible' (considering he is a doctor and not a faith healer, its a good trait for him to have) - which isn't [of course] a bad thing - i.e. look to Locke, who [as has been already said] follows (many times, blindly) his faith to each and every corner of his 'world'...

However, people [like Locke] who do have faith - do on occasions find inner strength/belief in things they do. You could argue it is medicine and 'tests' that make a paralysied man to walking again, others would say it was the mans 'determination' and faith/belief he had in that he could do it...

Note: No 'God' involved

Anyways, I don't think this show is about Religion and Science - but more, faith and Science. Granted, people with religious ties are typecasted as people being 'of faith'. But I don't think the message of the show is Science Vs Religion, it's probably Science + Faith = Everyone lives happily ever after

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by The_other_other,October 02, 2006 05:40 pm

I disagree korevo. I think faith is used differently by each character in lost. Sayid does seem to turn to it in times of need (like many people) while with other characters like eko and charlie it was always there, it was just waiting to be opened up. Locke is a prime example of needing encouragement for his faith to grow. This therefore constantly sets him up for falls and highs.

We dont really know much about anyone else, and although there have been hints about what Rose and jack believe, it hasnt really been confirmed. Jack hasnt actually said 'i believe only in science' and Rose seemed pretty skeptical in her flashback.

I dont get what part of my post that you disagree with because what youve said in no way disagrees with my view

I never said that faith is the same for each character - in fact im stressing the fact that the creators have depicted faith in many many different ways.. ..much like what you have stated.. Perhaps you only read my initiial 2 paragraphs Other other

[The_other_other]

i see what your trying to say, but you cant really leave faith and religion out of the same sentence. The references to the catholic church are everywhere in lost, and we know the pope will make a guest appearence later so i think lost is about all three and how they mix and conflict so to speak.

Im also interested to know what kind of people the 'good guys' are. At first i thought they were some kind of religious nutters, but now im not so sure. I think they could actually be on the other end of the argument which would be much more interesting. Im referring to some comments made by HG while captured.

[The_other_other]

sorry korevo, i thought you ment that everyone uses faith the same way as sayid

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by E PLURIBUS UNUM,October 02, 2006 05:51 pm

I think there's a huge difference between what we might see as religion and faith. Before this show started I would have put faith and religion together, hand in hand. But I think faith means more to people than religion. Everyone has faith, some people [a la Jack] seems to ignore it and concentrate on what's real and 'tangible' (considering he is a doctor and not a faith healer, its a good trait for him to have) - which isn't [of course] a bad thing - i.e. look to Locke, who [as has been already said] follows (many times, blindly) his faith to each and every corner of his 'world'...

However, people [like Locke] who do have faith - do on occasions find inner strength/belief in things they do. You could argue it is medicine and 'tests' that make a paralysied man to walking again, others would say it was the mans 'determination' and faith/belief he had in that he could do it...

Note: No 'God' involved

Anyways, I don't think this show is about Religion and Science - but more, faith and Science. Granted, people with religious ties are typecasted as people being 'of faith'. But I don't think the message of the show is Science Vs Religion, it's probably Science + Faith = Everyone lives happily ever after

I agree that religion and faith are not necessarily one in the same thing.

Both can be products of each other because people of religion often have faith and people of faith often religiously believe..(of course this isnt a strict rule..but im sure you get me?)

So yes, ive long seen the 2 as seperate entities which have a connection with each other.

You correctly identified Locke as a prime example of this whole subject - Locke is a man of faith..yet he is not necessarily religious. He is not bound by a religion, thus he has more freedom (in a sense)?..Yet he religiously pushed that button for a good few weeks didnt he..

I guess what im trying to suggest is that religion and faith are indeed different..but their paths do cross frequently.

Just to clarify, i agree with you

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by The_other_other,October 02, 2006 06:03 pm

sorry korevo, i thought you ment that everyone uses faith the same way as sayid

lol, nah.. i fully believe that faith comes in many different forms and means something unique to each person. In the world we live in today faith is so vital and yet is so often abused. The only thing we can really trust is our own faith. By that i dont mean in terms of one religion over another..i mean that we can only really take something from faith that gives us strength. That same element might not mean as much to someone else..yet to the individual, it's everything - take Lockes button for example..it meant little to Jack and co..yet to him..it was the be all and end all. The same later on with the Magificent Eko..

Ok, i realise that makes no sense

[Audio Pineapple]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,October 02, 2006 06:12 pm

He is not bound by a religion, thus he has more freedom (in a sense)?

I'm not sure I agree with this part. If a person has a set religion then they have all their rules written/passed down and they know exactly what they believe in (in a sense) which means that it is easier for them to conform and stick to their faith because they have a more simplistic understanding of what that is. Unlike Locke who, having had no rules or guidelines to protect his faith, he found himself moving from project to project and to me this tunnel vision seemed to make him far less free than a person whose faith was set into their religion.

[The_other_other]

locke reminded me of calvinists-people who believe their lives are set out at birth and that there is nothing they can do to change them. They, like Locke dont believe in free will. You could say that destiny is lockes religion

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Audio Pineapple,October 02, 2006 11:07 pm

I'm not sure I agree with this part. If a person has a set religion then they have all their rules written/passed down and they know exactly what they believe in (in a sense) which means that it is easier for them to conform and stick to their faith because they have a more simplistic understanding of what that is. Unlike Locke who, having had no rules or guidelines to protect his faith, he found himself moving from project to project and to me this tunnel vision seemed to make him far less free than a person whose faith was set into their religion.

But isnt what you said a description of someone (locke) having more freedom? - for example you mentioned: 'no rules or guidelines', 'moving from project to project'... ..to me that sounds like someone having 'more' 'freedom' than someone who is bound to a religion..

Just to clarify by 'freedom', i meant that his interpretation of faith etc is more open to his own moral outlook. He is not bound to scripture or a written 'law' as it were. His faith is more liberal since there is no book of law (eg Bible) for him to adhere to. In my opinion Locke's faith allows him far more freedom than say Eko.

Of course not all people of religion follow a strict adherance to their 'law', but im just trying to compare religion to Locke's more liberal 'faith'.

[Audio Pineapple]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,October 03, 2006 04:04 pm

But isnt what you said a description of someone (locke) having more freedom? - for example you mentioned: 'no rules or guidelines', 'moving from project to project'... ..to me that sounds like someone having 'more' 'freedom' than someone who is bound to a religion..

Just to clarify by 'freedom', i meant that his interpretation of faith etc is more open to his own moral outlook. He is not bound to scripture or a written 'law' as it were. His faith is more liberal since there is no book of law (eg Bible) for him to adhere to. In my opinion Locke's faith allows him far more freedom than say Eko.

Of course not all people of religion follow a strict adherance to their 'law', but im just trying to compare religion to Locke's more liberal 'faith'.

I think that we're having slightly different views on what freedom is in this context. In my opinion, Locke does have the traditional freedom to move from faith to faith but this could be percieved as a bad type of freedom, because it has brought him nothing but pain and suffering - from 'gotta push the button' to 'don't push the button' to 'I was wrong.'

The fact that he doesn't have any kind of guidelines in his faith makes it easier for him to focus on his over-all faith, or, in a way, his God (as he appears to have come to behold Destiny as a God-like creature. He is sure that it exists and he is willing to do anything to service it.)

But it also makes it harder for him to interpret the route to which he can find his Destiny. So far he's been obsessed with: excavating the hatch, opening the hatch, getting to the plane, pushing the button, not pushing the button. I see this as more of a negative form of freedom - he has the ability to make his choices without any apparent outside influence but this becomes overwhelming for him, and, at times obscures his pathway to Destiny.

Whereas a religious person who wants to get into their ultimate goal of something like Heaven, has what they should do written down. They are being guided but they can still make their own, informed choices about the best routes to take.

But I was wondering, is Locke's faith beginning to turn into a religion? I mentioned earlier about how he had no external influences but we know that this is not true anymore. In the olden days he could go wandering through the jungle and seperate himself from the island society, which meant that nobody was able to question or mould his faith for him.

But now, both Orientation films and Henry have altered his faith. They have given him guidelines (push the button, don't push the button) which seems to me to be akin to religious guidelines.