Oh the Irony!

[Hooting Heck]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 08, 2006 02:21 pm

It definetely wasnt planned - We wouldve been privy to such a staged event and also look at the look on Ana and Sayids faces..Saiyid meant to kill him..that was no plan imo.

There's no point staging it if you don't make it convincing!

If the viewers were privy to the planning, it would make it less dramatic (lose shock value). Did we see Sayid digging up the grave under the balloon?

It's not like I'm claiming there's a deleted scene or two somewhere - either "Let's do good cop bad cop" or "Well, that didn't work". But it looked to me like that's what they were doing to Henry.

Plus, if Sayid really wanted Henry dead, he'd be dead, imo!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Hooting Heck,September 08, 2006 04:20 pm

There's no point staging it if you don't make it convincing!

If the viewers were privy to the planning, it would make it less dramatic (lose shock value). Did we see Sayid digging up the grave under the balloon?

It's not like I'm claiming there's a deleted scene or two somewhere - either "Let's do good cop bad cop" or "Well, that didn't work". But it looked to me like that's what they were doing to Henry.

Plus, if Sayid really wanted Henry dead, he'd be dead, imo!

No we didnt see Sayid digging up the grave..but crucially we found out later on didnt we How can they have fabricated Sayid shooting Henry? ..look at their faces. Sayid was going to kill him. What benifit would it be for the viewer for them to have only pretended to kill him if we dont find out?

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by KoRevo

I recognise that youre not necessarily supporting what Sayid did etc. Also the point about them not being in the real world..i agree..in fact that was a major element of my arguement in supporting Ana's actions on Nathen. However I still think there's a line. Sayid was under no threat whatsoever from henry..he wasnt beating the living daylights out of Henry because he was scared or because he was protecting the group. Instead he was pummeling him because he was angry over what happened to Shannon. Now surely whether youre in the wild or in civilisation this is going to far?..Reason and logic fly out of the window when you beat up a man because you want to take your own frustration out on him surely? When your survival is at stake i can understand drastic action being taken - like Ana did with putting Nathen in the pit. However Sayid just went savage on Henry in order to make himself feel better.

Yes you're right in that Sayid was under no threat from Henry when he started beating him, but he could have felt under threat from the Others in general: he may have had the image of a band of murderous Others marching through the jungle towards them (like Henry could have been doing for all he knew), and so that thought inflamed his hatred and panic. Yeah I know it's a weak argument, but he might have thought along those lines for a time!

And again you're completely right in that torturing a man is going too far whether you're in the wild or civilisation...but the harsh truth is is that is does happen...probably more often then we are aware of or care to believe possible. I don't believe there is any justification of torturing a person, no matter what the circumstances. However the circumstances Sayid found himself in when he tortured Henry would be the most understanding of ones, because he had a lot of factors playing on him at that exact point in time. I don't excuse what he did, but I can sort of understand and see the reasons why he tortured at that point.

And I agree that Sayid partly tortured Henry (OK maybe that was even his main motivation), but I don't think it was his sole one. Underneath his desire for revenge and heartache and hatred, I think he wanted to help and protect the other losties by getting information out of Henry in the way he was best at.

Originally Posted by KoRevo

I also think it's worse because this isnt the first time Sayid has stooped to such low levels whilst on the island. It should be in his nature to be the kind, considerate and loving man that he was towards Shannon..not this savage beast that he's become. I think by reverting back to what 'he' believes he once was, he is dishonouring the name and memory of Shannon..he is trampling on everything she helped him to become. She brought out such tenderness and warmth in him. And perhaps if Sayid wants someone to blame..then he should blame himself for not believing her about Walt?

Yeah I agree that it's a great shame that he's reverted back to what he was before he was with Shannon, but I don't think it's completely by choice, and I don't think it's as easy as it seems for Sayid to be a caring, protective person again. What happened with Shannon - and the Others - has probably struck a fatal blow to at least part of his character...I'm not saying that he's forever beyond help and redemption, but he will never be the same as he was; unfortuantely I think a part of him has changed forever. I think that he would like to be the person he was, becuase I'm sure he's aware that Shannon wouldn't approve of the way he's acting now, but it's a very hard thing to completely switch character again, especially given the current circumstances Sayid is in. And I bet Sayid does blame himself for not believing Shannon earlier, and torturing himself with wondering whether that would have prevented her death or not.

[Hooting Heck]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 08, 2006 03:24 pm

No we didnt see Sayid digging up the grave..but crucially we found out later on didnt we How can they have fabricated Sayid shooting Henry? ..look at their faces. Sayid was going to kill him. What benifit would it be for the viewer for them to have only pretended to kill him if we dont find out?

I already said, Ana Lucia and Sayid would have to make it look like Sayid was really going to kill Henry, otherwise the trick wouldn't be convincing. Same as when Ana Lucia played Spanish Prisoner, pretending to be thrown into her own pit with Sawyer, Michael and Jin.

So you can't argue from what it looked like. To me, it looked like good cop bad cop. Might not have been, and if Sayid simply lost control, fine; but if he really wanted to kill Henry, Henry would be dead.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Hooting Heck,September 08, 2006 05:11 pm

I already said, Ana Lucia and Sayid would have to make it look like Sayid was really going to kill Henry, otherwise the trick wouldn't be convincing. Same as when Ana Lucia played Spanish Prisoner, pretending to be thrown into her own pit with Sawyer, Michael and Jin.

So you can't argue from what it looked like. To me, it looked like good cop bad cop. Might not have been, and if Sayid simply lost control, fine; but if he really wanted to kill Henry, Henry would be dead.

Yes but when Ana pretended to be a prisoner we the audience later found out that it was all a ploy. If Sayid and Ana had pretended to kill Henry then we wouldve found out that it was all a ploy. Also Sayid was too raw to be playing tricks..the man was in no mood to 'pretned' to kill anyone..if he was going to do it then it was going to be for real..which it was imo.

Sayid did want Henry dead..but Ana stopped him. Just like Jack stopped him in 2.14. Do you think Sayid had time or the mind set to be playing games with Henry? The man was far too raw and emotional to mess around with him imo

[Hooting Heck]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 08, 2006 04:35 pm

Also Sayid was too raw to be playing tricks..the man was in no mood to 'pretned' to kill anyone..if he was going to do it then it was going to be for real..which it was imo.

Again, if he was only pretending to try to kill Henry, he would still have to make it look real! So you can't rely on how he was acting - in both senses of 'acting'!

But it occurs to me that, so far as what we have/haven't seen, you've seen more of the series than I have, so I'm gonna stop now for fear of 'interpreting' spoiler info.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Hooting Heck,September 08, 2006 06:04 pm

Again, if he was only pretending to try to kill Henry, he would still have to make it look real! So you can't rely on how he was acting - in both senses of 'acting'!

But it occurs to me that, so far as what we have/haven't seen, you've seen more of the series than I have, so I'm gonna stop now for fear of 'interpreting' spoiler info.

My interpretation has got nothing to do with the E4 episode i promise you

Im basing what im saying on how i saw that isolated incident. You 'could' be right..maybe they did collude and only pretended to kill Henry, but i severely doubt that - it serves no purpose to the viewer for Ana and Sayid have pretended to kill Henry with Ana diving in a the last minute etc if we, the viewer, arent privy to such a plan. Yes the acting would have to be good in order to fool Henry..but since we were not let in on this supposed 'plan', it can surely only mean that Sayid really did try to kill Henry..surely?

[Murgatroyd]

I agree with Korevo on this. I think the good cop/bad cop is a perfectly valid reading of the situation, but the lack of any revelation to the viewer combined with our knowledge of Sayid's state of mind (and Jack's apparent concern for him after he fired the shot) does suggest to me that things were wholly as they seemed: Sayid losing it (or simply attempting one of these ubiquitous revenge killings) and Ana Lucia performing a good deed in preventing the murder. That she sadly later undoes.