Will Sayid ever stop torturing?

[St. Anger]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,October 27, 2006 06:16 pm

I see your point but i dont think Sayid needs to revert back to torturing to have 'umph'. I rather enjoyed seeing him become the moral barrometer after meeting Rousseau. It was interesting to see him become a man of reason and conduct himself in a firm yet gentlemanly way - think him extracting info about the hatch from Locke and refusing to kill Locke, as Shannon requested. That was good tv and made me warm to the man.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. He was very stern with Locke wasn't he! Locke played it off like "what hatch?", and Sayid wasn't fooled. Though didn't someone tell Sayid about "something in the ground", possibly Boone told Jack before he died.

Thinking about that, I'm sure Sayid would have beaten Locke up, though he wouldn't have tortured him.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by St. Anger (o'_'o),October 28, 2006 04:12 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. He was very stern with Locke wasn't he! Locke played it off like "what hatch?", and Sayid wasn't fooled. Though didn't someone tell Sayid about "something in the ground", possibly Boone told Jack before he died.

Thinking about that, I'm sure Sayid would have beaten Locke up, though he wouldn't have tortured him.

Yeah it was Boone who let slip details of there being a sectret hatch. Though it was Jack who relayed this to Sayid

Im not sure that Sayid wouldve beaten Locke up had he resisted. At this stage he was still very much a man of reason and he had a blossoming relationship with Shannon to keep him on the straight and narrow. Also there was quite a bit of respect between Sayid and Locke.

I recall Locke giving Sayid the knife and advising him about watching his back (although Sayid did find out that it was Locke who whacked him over the head whilst triangulating the signal). Also, Locke told Boone that "Sayid's very capable..we might need him on our side later on". I also feel that Sayid had a similar respect for Locke..perhaps because Locke treated him with respect but also because they often seem to be on the same wavelength - eg, Locke giving Sayid the compass, Sayid seeking Locke's help over Henry situation (instead of Jack) etc etc.

I dont think Sayid would ever lay a hand on Locke. Well..unless Locke goes for a leak in a suspicious manner or something

[E Pluribus Unum]

I wouldn't have begrudged Sayid 'aggressing' against Locke, lets not forget Locke attacked Sayid...

But I don't agree with Sayids 'domestic storyline' [Shannon] is better TV than Sayid/Gale scenes. Sure, Shannon and Sayid were pretty watch-able but I still like 'controversial' Sayid rather than, 'Honey, I'm home' Sayid....

Of course, just because I like watching 'controversial' scenes doesn't mean, in any way, I condone them

[Murgatroyd]

My problem with Sayid's reversion to his jolly old torturing ways is not that it's intrinsically unwatchable in itself but that I don't actually believe in his established motivation. Had he decided that torturing Henry Gale was a good idea because of some flashback to Shannon, and had his intense anger towards the Others been hinted at prior to his reversion instead of an episode or two later, I wouldn't have condoned his choice but I might well have believed it likely. But the turning point came when Rousseau told Sayid not to believe Henry: prior to that, he'd been totally sympathetic to Henry's plight. Why on earth would he go back on a pledge that obviously meant a great deal at the time purely because Rousseau, a woman whose word he knows means more or less nothing, told him he ought to?

The reversion of Sawyer, on the other hand, I find completely abhorrent to the point of unwatchability. I used to enjoy his scenes. Now I can't wait till they're over - I can't even laugh at him anymore.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by E PLURIBUS UNUM,October 28, 2006 09:21 pm

I wouldn't have begrudged Sayid 'aggressing' against Locke, lets not forget Locke attacked Sayid...

But I don't agree with Sayids 'domestic storyline' [Shannon] is better TV than Sayid/Gale scenes. Sure, Shannon and Sayid were pretty watch-able but I still like 'controversial' Sayid rather than, 'Honey, I'm home' Sayid....

Of course, just because I like watching 'controversial' scenes doesn't mean, in any way, I condone them

Yeah, i mentioned above that despite Syaid discovering that Locke whacked him over the head, he still treated Locke with a fair amount of respect and had enough Locke appreciation to lower his gun from Locke's cranium

Personally I would have begrudged Sayid 'attacking' Locke. Locke explain his reasons for his actions and even Sayid bought it and saw reason in Locke's madness. Afterall, as John said, he did it because he was concerned about people going into the heart of darkness when they knew so little about the island. Who am i to doubt Locke's sincerity? :P

As for Sayid's 'domestic storyline'..well thats not quite what i meant. I agree, that sort of thinkg can get tiresome and..well..icky (for want of a better phrase). But what i enjoyed was seeing Sayid find peace..find solace..and of all places to find such treasures (because thats what they are), he found them on the island! It was good to witness these two people save each other..there's nothing more beautiful than that (well..you know what i mean). But the thing is, both characters (Shannon and Sayid) still had an edge (yes, even Shannon )..the writers somehow managed to give them real dilemna's and issues to contend with. For example, the whole Boone (and later, his death) situation..which was great to watch (imo)..

I found Sayid so interesting and 'easy' to watch..i understood him and felt for him. In fact it was Sayid who helped me to appreciate Shannon more...and let me tell you, that wasnt easy!

So basically, it's not like Sayid/Shan's relationship was like Claire and Charlie's..it was handled well and superbly acted by Naveen, who is very "capable" or reaching such heights..there's something about the man and i thik Shannon's character helped him to blossom (and vice versa).

Thats not to say I dont appreciate the acting of Naveen now. I do..he's blooming great (for the most part)..it's just that his character has spiralled out of control in a manner which i cant quite understand..or approve of. And thats despite Shannons death, which i believe is an over-used excuse for his sympathisers I mean, Shannon lost Boone and she didnt go around stringing people up - although she did nearly kill Locke, so perhaps that isnt the best example, lol! ..take Hurley then..he lost Libby (and Dave! :P )..and yet he declined the opportunity to kill Michael.. ..I know different people operate on different levels and everyone has their own motivation for doing things...it's just that i feel cheated by Sayid..ive lost count of how many times I have forgiven the man for acts of human crime! I swore it would the last time when he almost killed Sawyer...im not sure i have it in me to forgive again.. but they do say time heals all wounds..so who knows

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,October 29, 2006 08:39 am

My problem with Sayid's reversion to his jolly old torturing ways is not that it's intrinsically unwatchable in itself but that I don't actually believe in his established motivation.

Agreed!

[E Pluribus Unum]

I mentioned somewhere else about 'sterotypes' and Sayid falls into that catagory. I do see where you're coming from, there's nothing better seeing characters evolve - however, for me season 2 was a bit about 'recessions' - Locke, Charlie, Sawyer, Sayid, Hugo [?] all became the people who they were pre-island, even though they had 'grown' into other people.

I suppose the question is; are the character arcs becoming full circles..?

I hope not

I'll not pass judgement on Sayid yet, perhaps we'll see later that he hasn't come full circle but is still 'growing' just in a different way lol

[Murgatroyd]

I think you're right there: the overarching theme of season two was about characters reverting to, generally, their worse moments in season one. Sometimes that was pulled off fairly well - particularly Hurley and Jin who had momentary lapses but then overcame them, but then that's not really the pattern of the other characters. Of those, I think Ana's unfortunate regression was best handled, with her seeking vengence, then turning her back on revenge only to make a disasterous attempt to carry it out by proxy: probably because it was brief, believable and tightly plotted, and stuffed with dramatic irony.

I think my problem, aside from the fact that I found most of the regressions poorly written and unsignalled (Locke just kept changing his mind with no apparent motivation; Sayid's would've worked if it had been triggered by something more profound that the word of Rousseau), is that regression to that extent is not a satisfying character arc. With Sawyer, for example, it was prurient and uncomfortable, and it's totally ruined my enjoyment of the character. It might work better if this was the last season - as it is, it feels like a way of dragging out the character development. Kick them right back to the start so they can redeem themselves a second time (and by the law of diminishing returns, the second redemption and the third and fourth will all be much less punchy than the first) - and we can spin it out for a few more series.....

[The_abbott]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,October 29, 2006 08:59 am

Yeah, i mentioned above that despite Syaid discovering that Locke whacked him over the head, he still treated Locke with a fair amount of respect and had enough Locke appreciation to lower his gun from Locke's cranium

Personally I would have begrudged Sayid 'attacking' Locke. Locke explain his reasons for his actions and even Sayid bought it and saw reason in Locke's madness. Afterall, as John said, he did it because he was concerned about people going into the heart of darkness when they knew so little about the island. Who am i to doubt Locke's sincerity? :P

As for Sayid's 'domestic storyline'..well thats not quite what i meant. I agree, that sort of thinkg can get tiresome and..well..icky (for want of a better phrase). But what i enjoyed was seeing Sayid find peace..find solace..and of all places to find such treasures (because thats what they are), he found them on the island! It was good to witness these two people save each other..there's nothing more beautiful than that (well..you know what i mean). But the thing is, both characters (Shannon and Sayid) still had an edge (yes, even Shannon )..the writers somehow managed to give them real dilemna's and issues to contend with. For example, the whole Boone (and later, his death) situation..which was great to watch (imo)..

I found Sayid so interesting and 'easy' to watch..i understood him and felt for him. In fact it was Sayid who helped me to appreciate Shannon more...and let me tell you, that wasnt easy!

So basically, it's not like Sayid/Shan's relationship was like Claire and Charlie's..it was handled well and superbly acted by Naveen, who is very "capable" or reaching such heights..there's something about the man and i thik Shannon's character helped him to blossom (and vice versa).

Thats not to say I dont appreciate the acting of Naveen now. I do..he's blooming great (for the most part)..it's just that his character has spiralled out of control in a manner which i cant quite understand..or approve of. And thats despite Shannons death, which i believe is an over-used excuse for his sympathisers I mean, Shannon lost Boone and she didnt go around stringing people up - although she did nearly kill Locke, so perhaps that isnt the best example, lol! ..take Hurley then..he lost Libby (and Dave! :P )..and yet he declined the opportunity to kill Michael.. ..I know different people operate on different levels and everyone has their own motivation for doing things...it's just that i feel cheated by Sayid..ive lost count of how many times I have forgiven the man for acts of human crime! I swore it would the last time when he almost killed Sawyer...im not sure i have it in me to forgive again.. but they do say time heals all wounds..so who knows

Roco - you can't compare Sayod to Hurley.

Sayid got some with Shannon whereas Hurley and Libby were only at picnic level.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by The_abbott,November 01, 2006 11:05 am

Roco - you can't compare Sayod to Hurley.

Sayid got some with Shannon whereas Hurley and Libby were only at picnic level.

True but this was perhaps the first time that Hurley was at this sort of stage with a woman (excluding Scarla who he may have hit 3rd base with?)..she had also saved him from certain death and had promised him wine *wink wink* ..poor bloke must have been truely gutted that his opportunty to lust/love had gone.

I do agree though - what Shayid had was far more. But still in saying that Sayid had only known the woman for 48 days (20 of which they didnt really interact)..hardly Nadia/long lost love proportions :P