Maybe A WATO Member Can Clear This Up For Me

[Murgatroyd]

Allowing one the freewill to choose whether to murder someone is well..not (murder).

But we're talking about people with a damaged capacity to correctly exercise freewill - deeply involved people who are simply too partial to rationalise. That's why crime victims kind of need detached third parties to decide what does and doesn't constitute justice - otherwise you get a society based on violent revenge. And finding the people most susceptible to the idea of murdering Cooper and then giving them a further motive and the means to carry that out goes beyond 'allowing them freewill' - it's more about enabling than allowing.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by JB_Sawyer

I was also an Ana fan remember.

Amid the Sawyer protection, ive completly forgetten that. Actually i dont even remember it (being honest here)

Christ..im glad you dont run this earth JB!
How on *earth* can you allow to people who do the killing to escape responsibility? How can you seriously allow Mike and Sawyer off the hook? I have to start taking your posts with a pinch of salt i feel.

Shame that I reckon it'd be fun...

for you and Sawyer perhaps

I haven't let them escape responsibility at all nor have I let them off the hook. I do not look at things as black and white, I look at the events surrounding them, the involvment of others and everything else. I don't solely look at who pulled the trigger, I look at why and what led up to it. And in both of these instances, albeit Sawyer moreso than Mike, the man who pulled the trigger is not solely to blame. And I may have to take yours with a pinch of sugar

Well then!! If you dont soley look at who pulled the trigger, how comes you cant find it within youself to attribute at least some of the blame for Ana's death to Sawyer? You're ok with blaming Ben(!!)..the man who was locked in a cell..and yet you cant give equal blame to Sawyer? I find that.....convenient

Pinch of Sugar??

[Mrs Ferg]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Well yes and no (imo). Ben was testing Locke if you ask me..im not saying that Ben wouldve cried into his cuppa soup at the news of Coopers death, but Ben *needed* to find out whether Locke was "ready". This test proved that he was..that Locke is a good person

Hmmm I like that theory, so bascially, your saying that Ben "didnt" want cooper to die (but as a human being would not have cried over his death because he is a poor excuse for a human) but wanted to see if Locke could turn hate and revenge into murder (like he already knew Sawyer could) your theory being that if Locke did commit murder, he would "Not" be one of the others if he could not do it he would be?

Its a good theory and quite plausible, but why did he hit cooper when he was tied up? Also, he still told locke to bring Coopers body so wanted "someone" to kill him.

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Amid the Sawyer protection, ive completly forgetten that. Actually i dont even remember it (being honest here)

Lol fair enough but yeah I was an Ana fan. Not a die hard but I was a pretty big Ana fan.

for you and Sawyer perhaps

True true

Well then!! If you dont soley look at who pulled the trigger, how comes you cant find it within youself to attribute at least some of the blame for Ana's death to Sawyer? You're ok with blaming Ben(!!)..the man who was locked in a cell..and yet you cant give equal blame to Sawyer? I find that.....convenient

Pinch of Sugar??

Because I honestly can't see what Sawyer can be blamed for in Ana's death. I honestly can't. I can see blame obviously on Mike's part, on Ben's part and also a little bit on Ana herself, but in this instance I can honestly not see what Sawyer can be blamed for. Call me blind but I really can't. And no I can't give equal blame because it was Ben that attacked her forcing her to want to kill him. What did Sawyer do?

To take away the bitter taste (Sorry inside joke there lol)

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Mrs Ferg

Hmmm I like that theory, so bascially, your saying that Ben "didnt" want cooper to die (but as a human being would not have cried over his death because he is a poor excuse for a human) but wanted to see if Locke could turn hate and revenge into murder (like he already knew Sawyer could) your theory being that if Locke did commit murder, he would "Not" be one of the others if he could not do it he would be?

Its a good theory and quite plausible, but why did he hit cooper when he was tied up? Also, he still told locke to bring Coopers body so wanted "someone" to kill him.

Just to clarify what im saying: Im not saying that Ben *didnt* want Cooper to die. Personally i dont think Ben was worried about whether Cooper lived or not (which is fair enough imo)..i think Ben was more worried about Locke's *choice*, which of course is linked to whether Locke killed Cooper or not. I think Ben was pleased at Lockes choice not to personally kill him. I dont buy the 'pretence' that he was disappointed. I should add that that is my *opinion* (before anyone flames me)..i think ben was only pretending to be disappointed in Locke because need for Locke to find his purpose..he needed for Locke to become free. And since Locke brought Cooper to the island, Ben knew that he was the reason why Locke hadnt yet reached his true potential..hence Ben didnt want Locke to kill Cooper, but knew that Locke needed to be free of Cooper. Ben is a mastermind..and guess what - he's surpassed himself this time.. Ben has helped Locke and he took the leap of faith that Locke wouldnt become a killer. *imo*

As for Ben hitting Cooper..i find this a strange question (with respect)..because wouldnt we all have whacked him one? Ben is a compassionate man and no doubt he knows and sympathises with Lockes past.. Hitting Cooper is not the same as killing the man, i should add..

Yes, of course..as i said above, ben needed Locke to be free from Cooper..hence why he and Alpert got together and came up with the Sawyer plan. At the end of the day what they care about is Locke not being a killer..and Locke become free from Cooper. They dont care about Sawyer - he's already a lost cause..only fit for breaking rocks and impregnating women, as weve already seen With all seriosness tho, asking for Locke to bring the body is proof that Cooper is dead. At the end of the day Ben cares about Locke not killing Cooper..which he didnt

[IM-LOST-WITH-LOST]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Dude..Neither Ben nor Locke are the ones with blood on their hands..i dont understand this thread at all..

If you're referring to Ben telling Locke to kill Cooper..havent we known Ben's style for long enough now? Remember the Bunny incident? Ben was merely testing Locke..allowing his to find his own purpose..and Locke past with flying colours - i see no blood on the old boys hands..do you?

I find it strange how Sawyer has yet again escaped condemnation..and yet the two non-killers are the ones who are getting lambasted - whats up with that?

I've only read the first page, but it already seems your trying to steer the thread out of direction and blame sawyer.

Sawyer was the one to murder him, and like many people have said that was wrong. Im not saying its justified what he did but like locke said 'He had it coming,' After the pain he put sawyer through of loosing both parents, (his dad even shot himself in sawyers room whilst sawyer was under the bed) You can understand why Sawyer did it, not to mention the stories Cooper told him about locke, The fall, the kidney etc. It was obvious he was a bad man. But you are right, a lifes a life, it was morally wrong to do, but if you cant see why he did it... then put your self in his situation.

The thread was about Ben telling Locke that if he didn't kill cooper then he cannot join the others and learn everything about the island, (knowing locke would love to learn the secrets of the island,) Ben gave Locke (A man who doesnt have the heart to kill anyone) this disgusting ultimaton. This so called test you are talking about doesnt make any sense, Ben ordered Locke to kill Cooper, and because he didnt ben was uterlly dissapointed, so much in fact that they left locke with this dangerouse man and said that he would leave a trail which is easy to find, but cooper must be dead. So locke took him to sawyer.

If you think wisely, Mr cooper would still have been alive if ben didnt order locke to do his excecution. If Ben hadn't made that call then Sawyer would be an innocent man because he would have known nothing about cooper. Dont get me wrong I'm not saying locke hasnt a role to play in this because he is as guilty as ben because he locked Sawyer in a room with cooper and left him there untill 'the job was done' But again, if you think logically Cooper would not have died by Sawyers hands if Ben hadnt give Locke this disturbing ultimaton.

Ok, since you didnt understand the thread, ( ) its about how Ben state they are good people, but demand a corpse if you are to join them... Doesnt sound so good to me ?

[IM-LOST-WITH-LOST]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Well yes and no (imo). Ben was testing Locke if you ask me..im not saying that Ben wouldve cried into his cuppa soup at the news of Coopers death, but Ben *needed* to find out whether Locke was "ready". This test proved that he was..that Locke is a good person

But a good person does not order someone to kill a person as a 'test' If your theory is correct then once again, the death would still be linked to Ben if Locke had killed Cooper.

And that doesnt prove Locke is a good person, it actually proves the opposite. Ok, he didnt have the heart to kill cooper. So instead, like ben, he manipulated sawyer into the black rock, once inside locked him in a room with cooper untill cooper was dead... just so he could join the others?

This kinda means that either way locke and ben are as guilty as sawyer, ok they didnt directly kill him, but does that scene not make anyone think of Saw??Â*Â* Ben/Locke/Jigsaw locked two men in a room, manipulated them, but unlike saw only one person was intended to die.

Any Similarities??



The funny thing is, Michael Emmerson was in saw 1 :P

[JB Sawyer]

Hehehe unsurprisingly yes I did make the Saw connection of the 2 men in a room, locked against their will. Hehe nice ILWL.

[IM-LOST-WITH-LOST]

Originally Posted by JB_Sawyer

Hehehe unsurprisingly yes I did make the Saw connection of the 2 men in a room, locked against their will. Hehe nice ILWL.

I thought you would, You being Jigsaw and all

Glad i wasnt alone there :P

But dont Jigsaw and Locke look kinda similair aswell, i think they go to the same barbers

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by IM-LOST-WITH-LOST

I thought you would, You being Jigsaw and all

Glad i wasnt alone there :P

But dont Jigsaw and Locke look kinda similair aswell, i think they go to the same barbers

Good to see my real being is still recognised :P

Yeah John Kramer does look like John Locke. Even got the same bloody first name lol. Except Jigsaw has more hair

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by IM-LOST-WITH-LOST

I've only read the first page, but it already seems your trying to steer the thread out of direction and blame sawyer.

ILWL..there is no agenda here..the plain and simple fact is that Ford is a murderer.. Sorry, but your losties keep letting you down..it's my duty to point out these things

Sawyer was the one to murder him, and like many people have said that was wrong. Im not saying its justified what he did but like locke said 'He had it coming,' After the pain he put sawyer through of loosing both parents, (his dad even shot himself in sawyers room whilst sawyer was under the bed)

Can i clarifiy that Sawyers DAD killed Sawyers DAD..and his momma. Cooper is a wretch, yes..but lets not get this twisted ILWL..Cooper did not kill Sawyers parents. I dont get when people make that claim..and worryingly people use that argument quite a bit. It's just plain inaccurate..at least get the details right man.

You can understand why Sawyer did it, not to mention the stories Cooper told him about locke, The fall, the kidney etc. It was obvious he was a bad man. But you are right, a lifes a life, it was morally wrong to do, but if you cant see why he did it... then put your self in his situation.

Hold a minute dude. Im not defending Cooper here..im merely saying that you cant suddenly advocate the murder of a man when it suits you! Losties fans in general seem to fall into this trap..you cry blue murder under the guise (because thats all it is) of civilisation when Ben so much as blinks and yet when Sawyer murders a man, you suddenly deem it acceptable, because Cooper was a bad man. Erm..again, Cooper didnt kill Sawyers family. Yes, he had it coming, but you still cant chop and change on the issue of murder when it suits you. Had Locke or Ben killed Cooper i know just what you would be saying so iam not fooled by this sympathetic Sawyer routine

The thread was about Ben telling Locke that if he didn't kill cooper then he cannot join the others and learn everything about the island, (knowing locke would love to learn the secrets of the island,) Ben gave Locke (A man who doesnt have the heart to kill anyone) this disgusting ultimaton. This so called test you are talking about doesnt make any sense, Ben ordered Locke to kill Cooper, and because he didnt ben was uterlly dissapointed, so much in fact that they left locke with this dangerouse man and said that he would leave a trail which is easy to find, but cooper must be dead. So locke took him to sawyer.

Im sorry but you see the episode very differently from how i see it. In my view, Ben was *really* disappointed that Locke didnt kill Cooper..this was part of the test that i mentioned earlier. In an ideal world Ben would want for Locke to be free of Cooper (even if it meant Coopers death) and for Locke not to have blood on his hands...and guess what..thats EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED! So go figure..dont you think that the whole disappointment thing was merely a routine..an illusion to rid Locke of Cooper, yet keep his hands clean? Again..Ben wants to help Locke find his purpose..and now that Cooper is gone, this can happen.

If you think wisely, Mr cooper would still have been alive if ben didnt order locke to do his excecution. If Ben hadn't made that call then Sawyer would be an innocent man because he would have known nothing about cooper. Dont get me wrong I'm not saying locke hasnt a role to play in this because he is as guilty as ben because he locked Sawyer in a room with cooper and left him there untill 'the job was done' But again, if you think logically Cooper would not have died by Sawyers hands if Ben hadnt give Locke this disturbing ultimaton.

ILWL, do you see the flaws in what you're saying? Arent you losties wholly opposed to *any* murder? And yet here you are trying to shift the blame because one of your dear losties committed the crime, lol. Why cant you just accept it..you wanted it to be Ben or Locke and i know you wouldve revelled in that fact had they done the deed, but because it's Sawyer you're now advocating murder simply by shifting the blame from the murderer! lol!

I am fully aware that Ben played a part in this..and i accept his role in this..but ILWL his role pales into comparison to the role that Sawyer has played. Ben didnt care about Cooper and why should he? Ben cares about Locke not being a killer..and guess what ..Locke past the test AND he is free of Cooper. Sawyers choice was his own..no matter what the role of Ben and Locke. It looks kinda desperate to scrap the barrel and try to 'focus' the blame on Ben. Sorry dude, but it's not a good look.

Ok, since you didnt understand the thread, ( ) its about how Ben state they are good people, but demand a corpse if you are to join them... Doesnt sound so good to me ?

You dont understand the meaning of the word 'good' afterall this time? Good is relative..it always was, always has been and always will be.

But i tell you wants not good..killing a man..a man who has done precisely the things that Sawyer has done in his life..so by that merit, Sawyer himself deserves to die.

I repeat..Cooper did not kill Fords parents. He was a wretch and had it coming, but im sorry to report that Ford has little fallback for his actions..he is now a triple murderer..is anystill counting?