Maybe A WATO Member Can Clear This Up For Me

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Desmond?

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by IM-LOST-WITH-LOST

Well they cant say that he was testing locke to see if he would kill him. I mean, Richard told him that he was trying to humiliate him but when locke comfronted him about it, ben said why would he want to do that?? Also he left locke on his own with his dangerous father.

I also thought it was mean how ben played a sick mind game on locke by trying to get him to kill cooper by saying he may have been wrong about locke being special, Knowing that locke strives this.

Edit - Dont get me wrong, the traitor, i mean locke has really got on my nerves. I understand that he couldnt kill cooper because of all the stuff he had done to him, and for that i feel for him. But dragging him all the way back to the black rock and getting sawyer to kill him just so he could become an other.... Is wrong!!

I wouldn't take what Richard said as fact really...what's the betting that Ben put him up to giving Locke that file. Yes Ben was playing on Locke's emotions to try and get him to kill Anthony, but ultimately I don't believe that Ben did want Locke to kill him...yes he wanted Anthony to die, but not for Locke to become a cold blooded murderer, because that's not what the Others stand for - it's not what the Others believe that they stand for. Ben was hoping, but not expecting, for Locke to kill Anthony, and when Locke couldn't he sent Richard up the hill to direct him to Sawyer.

And I don't understand - how is Locke a traitor? And he doesn't want to become an Other...that's not his motivation for doing all of what he's done. Locke wants to uncover the secrets of the Island and to find a purpose in his life, and he'd be willing to go with and to assist anyone who could offer him such things.

[Murgatroyd]

I wouldn't take what Richard said as fact really...what's the betting that Ben put him up to giving Locke that file. Yes Ben was playing on Locke's emotions to try and get him to kill Anthony, but ultimately I don't believe that Ben did want Locke to kill him...yes he wanted Anthony to die, but not for Locke to become a cold blooded murderer, because that's not what the Others stand for - it's not what the Others believe that they stand for. Ben was hoping, but not expecting, for Locke to kill Anthony, and when Locke couldn't he sent Richard up the hill to direct him to Sawyer.

I don't see how this is any better. He wants a man dead and he wants to put that murder on somebody else's hands....

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Well... not much, no. I'm a bit confused about that. Her death was no conscious intent on Sawyer's part... his crime in that instance was being careless about a gun. But Ben and Locke both deliberately pushed for Cooper's death - it wasn't a side-effect of an unrelated misdemeanour. They wanted him to be killed, as the militants wanted the old man to be killed (surely you'll agree at least that the militants are guilty of much more than 'being careless with a gun').

If you need to have Sawyer blamed for Ana's death before you'll admit Locke and Ben's parts in Cooper's death, though, that's almost a good bargain....

A well observed distinction there and i accept that. However ive noticed alot of wild accusations and what i believe to be unfair character assasinations of late and the idea of Sawyer being a player in Ana's death is, at the end of the day, not much different from the cries that Locke and Ben were players in Coopers death

I see your point, but in the current climate of overzealous killer-support, i think the claim that Sawyer played a big role in Lucia's death is a credible one.

I guess it's all relative and the current climate of support for a murderer makes it more than condisive to reminders about Sawyers role in Ana's murder.

We must be fair afterall

[Murgatroyd]

Don't think anyone's saying 'murder's a good thing', Rocco. I've seen very few people go any further than your own admission that Cooper had it coming. I wouldn't call that a climate of 'murderer-support'. And I continue to find it extremely difficult to see how Locke and Ben can in any sense be extrapolated from their roles in Cooper's death.

[JB Sawyer]

I still really don't get how Sawyer is to blame for Ana's death. At all. I mean the only thing you could possibly blame him for is for taking more care of his one gun. But he took that out with him for fear of the Others, and simply stuck it in his back pocket. Where else could he have possibly put it that would have been any safer? Should he have swallowed it? Ana plain and simply seduced him and would have done anything possible to get that gun off Sawyer. Sawyer, whilst he can be blamed for many other things, cannot possibly be blamed for Ana's death. That blame rests solely on, oh would you look at that, Ben. Ben was the one that attacked a woman to make Ana want to kill him in the very first place. Ana's death was Ben's fault. As was Cooper's death. If Ben had not practically forced Locke to kill him, Locke wouldn't have gone to Sawyer, Sawyer wouldn't have killed him, happy bunnies. But he did. Ben is the root cause of both these incidents.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Don't think anyone's saying 'murder's a good thing', Rocco. I've seen very few people go any further than your own admission that Cooper had it coming. I wouldn't call that a climate of 'murderer-support'. And I continue to find it extremely difficult to see how Locke and Ben can in any sense be extrapolated from their roles in Cooper's death.

When people try to protect a certain character by dragging other characters into it then well..what can is say?

This was a pivotal Sawyer moment..and yet all im seeing is Ben this and Locke that.

I am sad to report..there is little fairness here.

Yes, Ben and Locke played a role, but it seems as if they are getting *more* blame in all of this than the man with the smoking gun, so to speak.

T'is a great shame

[Murgatroyd]

It's quite difficult to debate when expressing one's true opinions on characters other than the one you personally happen to view as the most culpable leads to accusations of unfairness and support for murder. Just a thought....

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by JB_Sawyer

I still really don't get how Sawyer is to blame for Ana's death. At all.

Of course you dont..you're a sawyer fan remember

Ana's death was Ben's fault. As was Cooper's death.

Christ..im glad you dont run this earth JB!
How on *earth* can you allow to people who do the killing to escape responsibility? How can you seriously allow Mike and Sawyer off the hook? I have to start taking your posts with a pinch of salt i feel.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

It's quite difficult to debate when expressing one's true opinions on characters other than the one you personally happen to view as the most culpable leads to accusations of unfairness and support for murder. Just a thought....

Have you read the pro-Sawyer posts..the ones which in no uncertain terms blame Ben and Locke for Coopers death, moreso than Ford?

Just a thought..

Like wise..it's rather difficult to debate with those who wear rose tints. I guess it's relative Murg.

[Mrs Ferg]

my take on things (and sorry this is repeated from my other posts elsewhere) is that to me Sawyer did murder Cooper but he was lead to this murder by Locke who was instructed to murder Cooper by Ben. So, although Sawyer did the intentionally act of murder, Locke and Ben certainly had intention to harm.

There are many arguments as to why Sawyer did what he did and morally I never believe in eye for an eye. However, I have not gone through what Sawyer has gone through and revenge and hatred are very powerful motions. I think Locke and Ben are not absolved of blame because they knew the flame buring in Sawyers heart and used that to make him do their act for him. I am not saying one is worse than the other, I think if this was argued in court, sawyer would be on charge of murder, he had the mens rea, but Locke and Ben would be gulity of accomplise (sorry spelling). They had the mens rea but did not commit the act.

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Have you read the pro-Sawyer posts..the oens which in no uncertain terms blame Ben and Locke for Coopers death, moreso than Ford?

Just a thought..

'Course I have. I *wrote* one of them. And it means I apportion the blame in the way I see fit. It doesn't mean I think what Sawyer did was excusable.

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Of course you dont..you're a sawyer fan remember

I was also an Ana fan remember.

Christ..im glad you dont run this earth JB!
How on *earth* can you allow to people who do the killing to escape responsibility? How can you seriously allow Mike and Sawyer off the hook? I have to start taking your posts with a pinch of salt i feel.

Shame that I reckon it'd be fun...
I haven't let them escape responsibility at all nor have I let them off the hook. I do not look at things as black and white, I look at the events surrounding them, the involvment of others and everything else. I don't solely look at who pulled the trigger, I look at why and what led up to it. And in both of these instances, albeit Sawyer moreso than Mike, the man who pulled the trigger is not solely to blame. And I may have to take yours with a pinch of sugar

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Mrs Ferg

my take on things (and sorry this is repeated from my other posts elsewhere) is that to me Sawyer did murder Cooper but he was lead to this murder by Locke who was instructed to murder Cooper by Ben. So, although Sawyer did the intentionally act of murder, Locke and Ben certainly had intention to harm.

Well yes and no (imo). Ben was testing Locke if you ask me..im not saying that Ben wouldve cried into his cuppa soup at the news of Coopers death, but Ben *needed* to find out whether Locke was "ready". This test proved that he was..that Locke is a good person

As for Locke..well he had more reason to murder Cooper than Sawyer has ever had..so whatever Lockes role in all of this, it's still far less than Sawyers actions, imo. And of course, Locke would want to do harm to Cooper..i dont think no-one can dispute that or acknowledge that Locke had good reason to.

There are many arguments as to why Sawyer did what he did and morally I never believe in eye for an eye. However, I have not gone through what Sawyer has gone through and revenge and hatred are very powerful motions. I think Locke and Ben are not absolved of blame because they knew the flame buring in Sawyers heart and used that to make him do their act for him. I am not saying one is worse than the other, I think if this was argued in court, sawyer would be on charge of murder, he had the mens rea, but Locke and Ben would be gulity of accomplise (sorry spelling). They had the mens rea but did not commit the act.

Well murder is murder..and this is a unique island and not the real world. Locke and Ben played a part but they still not murderers. I hear what you're saying but murder is murder. Allowing one the freewill to choose whether to murder someone is well..not (murder).

Remember, Eko died at the hands of Smokey for far less island actions. Be scared Ford fans..be VERY scared :P