Jack - Man of ...Faith?

[Reed]

Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Why on Earth did Jack push the Swan Computer button when Locke broke down in tears and begged him to push it? In fact WHY did Jack even go back to the Swan after chasing Desmond in the jungle? Despite seeing some downright weird things on the island, Jack proclaims he is a "Man of Science", yet he showed aspects of "Faith" in this episode.

Perhaps it was because he felt sorry for Locke and because he did not want to be mean to him. He went from shouting "why is it so easy!?" to becomimg teary eyed and agreeing to push the button. He seemed VERY assured that the button was meaningless, seemed to go out of his way to knock some sense into Desmond and Locke - but then winds up pushing the button.

Slightly off-topic is why Locke was so tearful about the whole thing and why he could not simply turn around to Kate, Hurley or Sayid and say "well Jack is not going to help me, any of you want to?". He made it sound like Jack was the ONLY person who could assist in the button pushing. Almost like he needed Jack's permission. I know Jack is the leader but all the same he is not in charge of everything.

[Matt Gogi]

Originally Posted by Reed

He seemed VERY assured that the button was meaningless, seemed to go out of his way to knock some sense into Desmond and Locke - but then winds up pushing the button.

You make a good point there Reed, that's exactly what I thought... he did make it quite clear he thought it wasn't real right from the start, yet still said what the last number was when Locke typed in 32, and agreed to push the button himself...

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Matt Gogi

You make a good point there Reed, that's exactly what I thought... he did make it quite clear he thought it wasn't real right from the start, yet still said what the last number was when Locke typed in 32, and agreed to push the button himself...

It is not really important but it was always something that puzzled me. Did Jack do any 'computer shifts' in the Swan by any chance, as I cannot really remember myself. I am pretty certain he did - which makes it ever more strange.

Tbh I do not blame Jack for not wanting to push it because clearly he is not as well informed about the Island as Locke is so of course was always going to find the idea of the Swan silly.

[Murgatroyd]

I guess that he just wasn't as assured as he claimed to be, hence his coming back to the hatch at all. You only need one microscopic seed of doubt to push that button, because the alternative might just be the end of the world. I doubt it was so much Locke's begging that convinced him as it was Desmond and the fact that Jack had met him before. Perhaps it was one coincidence too many. I think Jack still overwhelmingly believed that the button didn't do anything (wrong, as it turned out) or at least that it wasn't saving the entire world, but just a tiny bit of doubt would be enough to make one feel that the risk wasn't worth taking.

Also interesting to note that it was a matter of science anyway - there was nothing particularly mystical about what that button was doing, as it was actually reducing an electromagnetic anomaly. There was in fact a logical reason to be pressing it. Perhaps Jack factored that possibility into his reasoning, hence his and Sayid's exploring the technicalities of the hatch a couple of days later.

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by Reed

Slightly off-topic is why Locke was so tearful about the whole thing and why he could not simply turn around to Kate, Hurley or Sayid and say "well Jack is not going to help me, any of you want to?". He made it sound like Jack was the ONLY person who could assist in the button pushing. Almost like he needed Jack's permission. I know Jack is the leader but all the same he is not in charge of everything.

This is what I wrote in another thread about this point:

Locke wouldn't have had much opposition if he had wanted to become like Desmond and push the button all by himself all day long, but that's not really a lot of fun is it, and Locke - emphasised by his flashback - just doesn't want to be alone in his new task and wants other people to agree to do this vital thing with him. So he did his best to persuade Jack - the person most vocally opposed to the computer and the one the camp looks up to and follows - to push the button himself, because if he did so then his argument that the button is meaningless is weakened. If other people (Hurley, Kate and Sayid) saw their leader push the button then they will be more easily convinced to do it themselves, because if Jack - the person most against it - actually does it, then they will say to themselves that it's not neccessarily a bad thing to do themselves.

[Reed]

Very good explanations, I liked them. I had considered the "follow the leader" explanation and I think that in itself explains why Locke NEEDED Jack to push the button. Nice idea Murgatroyd, that Jack seeing Desmond was too much of a coincidence to simply ignore the button. I suppose Jack had that "better to be safe than sorry" mentality.

It is interesting how Jack and Desmon'd conversation in the jungle revolved around Sarah and seeing Jack at the stadium - not sure how that turned Jacks view around on the Swan button.

Well I think pushing the button required "faith" even though there was nothing mystical about it. Also, at the time they did not know much about the electromagetism, only Desmond knew the inner details provided by Inman [when he was drunk and about to turn the Fail Safe Key].

But yes Jack and Sayid knew the button was important and that high electromagentism is not something to fool around with. Re: exploring the basement of the Swan, that was AFTER Jack had agreed to push the button, which as I am sure you are saying only supported Jack's decision once he had made it.

Nice explanation Kiowa Warrior, I suppose it emphasises how shallow people can be. Even in adulthood we are faced by popularity contests and the "follow the leader" idealogy.

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by Reed

Well I think pushing the button required "faith" even though there was nothing mystical about it.

I agree that it requires faith in the idea that the button was vitally important - I just meant that Jack's being a rational man and a man of science wouldn't, in the end, have been a barrier to his believing it was necessary to push the button because there was ultimately a logical, scientifically grounded explanation that presumably would've satisfied him.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

I agree that it requires faith in the idea that the button was vitally important - I just meant that Jack's being a rational man and a man of science wouldn't, in the end, have been a barrier to his believing it was necessary to push the button because there was ultimately a logical, scientifically grounded explanation that presumably would've satisfied him.

I understand what you mean. I do not really know what to say without going round in a circle. I think faith came into it because based on a "scientifcally grounded explanation" there was no real reason to push the button. "It's an experiment, big deal" says Jack. But if Jack agreed to push it because it held a greater purpose - i.e. saving the world - then faith came into play imo.

He was ranting and raving about it being meaningless, which could suggest he did not really think it had a scientific purpose - possibly. I feel he ultimately agreed to push it faith, mainly.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Reed

Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Why on Earth did Jack push the Swan Computer button when Locke broke down in tears and begged him to push it? In fact WHY did Jack even go back to the Swan after chasing Desmond in the jungle? Despite seeing some downright weird things on the island, Jack proclaims he is a "Man of Science", yet he showed aspects of "Faith" in this episode.

Perhaps it was because he felt sorry for Locke and because he did not want to be mean to him. He went from shouting "why is it so easy!?" to becomimg teary eyed and agreeing to push the button. He seemed VERY assured that the button was meaningless, seemed to go out of his way to knock some sense into Desmond and Locke - but then winds up pushing the button.

My takes on this stems from the fact that Jack, in my opinion, is very curious - he needs to know whats going on, especially when it involves Locke.

Also, he saw something which needed "fixing", and we all know that Jack lies to fix things, except when it involves his father..

From a writers POV, I also think that they wanted us to tap into the idea that this was a leap of faith, but a leap of faith where the destination was 'science'. The hatch, the numbers..they all point to science, and so whether or not Jack conciously knew this, he was intriuged by it and mostly, he was intrigued by Locke's investment in it - "Why do you find it so hard to believe!?"

Truth is, Jack doesn't find it so hard to believe..he's just 'scared' of believing (in my view). After all the last time he believed in the improbably was when he promised Sarah that he would "fix" her..and he did, but it led to a chain of events which scarred him deeply. Once burned, twice shy..

Slightly off-topic is why Locke was so tearful about the whole thing and why he could not simply turn around to Kate, Hurley or Sayid and say "well Jack is not going to help me, any of you want to?". He made it sound like Jack was the ONLY person who could assist in the button pushing. Almost like he needed Jack's permission. I know Jack is the leader but all the same he is not in charge of everything.

I thin from a writers POV, they needed us to tap in to the idea that these two men are 'connected', both in the short run and the long fun (Flash forward?).

In this flashback episode we see Helen ask Locke to take a leap of faith for her..this parallels with Locke now asking Jack to take a leap of faith for him (and his belief in the island). What is interesting is that Locke was able to take his leap of faith with Helen on the grounds that he would (in theory) be letting go of his father and starting a new life. Was Jack motivated by the same reasons?

What buzzes me is the scene in the Flashforward, where Jack is about to leap off the bridge - far from being a 'leap' of faith, he does ask for "forgiveness"..could this suggest that in the future, Jack attempted to make one final 'leap' as a result of Locke's death? I believe Locke is in that coffin or that he is believed by Jack to be.

Did Locke pull an Anthony Cooper and fake his own death?

So, to round off my opinion of why Locke seemed to need Jack to push the button with him (and not Sayid or Kate etc) - I think that from Locke's POV, he needed Jack to believe in him. Boone did, Charlie did, Walt did..and it gave Locke the confidence he needed at various stages. By getting Jack invested, it would be akin to the island getting Locke invested by healing his legs. And for what it was worth, Jack's involvement, heavily shaped the course of hatch events..

[Reed]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

My takes on this stems from the fact that Jack, in my opinion, is very curious - he needs to know whats going on, especially when it involves Locke.

Also, he saw something which needed "fixing", and we all know that Jack lies to fix things, except when it involves his father..

From a writers POV, I also think that they wanted us to tap into the idea that this was a leap of faith, but a leap of faith where the destination was 'science'. The hatch, the numbers..they all point to science, and so whether or not Jack conciously knew this, he was intriuged by it and mostly, he was intrigued by Locke's investment in it - "Why do you find it so hard to believe!?"

Truth is, Jack doesn't find it so hard to believe..he's just 'scared' of believing (in my view). After all the last time he believed in the improbably was when he promised Sarah that he would "fix" her..and he did, but it led to a chain of events which scarred him deeply. Once burned, twice shy..

Some good points there. I think "curiosity" brought him back to the Hatch after catching up with Desmond. Also, as you say the Science aspect of the station played a part in Jack's motivation. I do not think any sane person would bluff a system that seemingly controls such immense "electromagnetism" - as Jack experienced when the key round his neck was pulled toward the wall.

I think being "scared" and finding it "hard" could go hand in hand in some instances. I would not say saving Sarah scarred him because his time with her gave him lots of joy too. I do not think Jack was scared in this instance but simply thought the button was meaningless.

I thin from a writers POV, they needed us to tap in to the idea that these two men are 'connected', both in the short run and the long fun (Flash forward?).

In this flashback episode we see Helen ask Locke to take a leap of faith for her..this parallels with Locke now asking Jack to take a leap of faith for him (and his belief in the island). What is interesting is that Locke was able to take his leap of faith with Helen on the grounds that he would (in theory) be letting go of his father and starting a new life. Was Jack motivated by the same reasons?

What buzzes me is the scene in the Flashforward, where Jack is about to leap off the bridge - far from being a 'leap' of faith, he does ask for "forgiveness"..could this suggest that in the future, Jack attempted to make one final 'leap' as a result of Locke's death? I believe Locke is in that coffin or that he is believed by Jack to be.

Did Locke pull an Anthony Cooper and fake his own death?

So, to round off my opinion of why Locke seemed to need Jack to push the button with him (and not Sayid or Kate etc) - I think that from Locke's POV, he needed Jack to believe in him. Boone did, Charlie did, Walt did..and it gave Locke the confidence he needed at various stages. By getting Jack invested, it would be akin to the island getting Locke invested by healing his legs. And for what it was worth, Jack's involvement, heavily shaped the course of hatch events..

Good idea, as it followed on from the Exodus tension/connection between the two. Not sure how the two are "connected" in Jack's flashforward however.

I would not say Jack was letting go of his Father personally but I would say by accepting to push the button Jack was letting go of his doubt and skepticism of Faith perhaps.

Interesting point there re: leaping off the bridge. I assumed Jack was asking God for forgiveness, but perhaps he was asking Locke or the Survivors because he abandoned them? Locke could very well be in the coffin, though I would like to think Locke is still on the Island in the flashforward.

It would be very powerful viewing if Jack was torn up at news of Locke's death because Locke was right all along about the Island, and about Fate and Destiny. On a side note I truly hope that the flashforward is NOT the end of Lost and that it was the beginning of S5 or S6.

Why would Locke fake his own death?

Good point re: Locke needing "motivation" deriving from Jack's agreeance to help him. Yet another reason for Locke's seemingly unusual behaviour in that scene.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

My takes on this stems from the fact that Jack, in my opinion, is very curious - he needs to know whats going on, especially when it involves Locke.

Also, he saw something which needed "fixing", and we all know that Jack lies to fix things, except when it involves his father..

From a writers POV, I also think that they wanted us to tap into the idea that this was a leap of faith, but a leap of faith where the destination was 'science'. The hatch, the numbers..they all point to science, and so whether or not Jack conciously knew this, he was intriuged by it and mostly, he was intrigued by Locke's investment in it - "Why do you find it so hard to believe!?"

Truth is, Jack doesn't find it so hard to believe..he's just 'scared' of believing (in my view). After all the last time he believed in the improbably was when he promised Sarah that he would "fix" her..and he did, but it led to a chain of events which scarred him deeply. Once burned, twice shy..

Originally Posted by Reed

Some good points there. I think "curiosity" brought him back to the Hatch after catching up with Desmond. Also, as you say the Science aspect of the station played a part in Jack's motivation. I do not think any sane person would bluff a system that seemingly controls such immense "electromagnetism" - as Jack experienced when the key round his neck was pulled toward the wall.

I think being "scared" and finding it "hard" could go hand in hand in some instances. I would not say saving Sarah scarred him because his time with her gave him lots of joy too. I do not think Jack was scared in this instance but simply thought the button was meaningless.

Thanks,
I agree, Jack's curiosity seemed to be the main thing to bring him back to the hatch - and what was it that Tom said to him at the line about Curiosity..

Also, you're right to mention Desmond, because their meeting also seemed to play a part in Jack's return - Desmond seemed to unwittingly hit a nerve regarding Jack miraculously saving Sarah - perhaps this reminded Jack about the miracle and this made his mind slightly more open to Locke's belief in the hatch? Or, alternatively, perhaps Jack recalled Sarah's words about needing something to "fix" and decided that indeed committing to the hatch was the best thing, since "commitment is what makes you tick, Jack"..? And you make a good and logical point, in the idea that Jack would not want to ignore the immence electromagnetical power that he knew was related to the hatch - perhaps Locke's plea merely hastened Jack's button pushing duties? Perhaps once he came back and saw Locke and gang around the button he initially saw no need for him to be there just yet..perhaps he would've pushed it had no-one been at the button at that point.

I can see what you mean about being scared and finding it hard going hand in hand - although I do believe that his memories of Sarah are deep cuts on both his ego and his heart. You're probably right in the idea that Jack simply thought the button was meaningless..as opposed to being 'scared' of it - though I do think he was scared of having to make such a leap of faith for Locke and more importantly, for one of Locke's belief's.

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

I thin from a writers POV, they needed us to tap in to the idea that these two men are '