Season 2 Episode 17 Discussion Thread

[Mantis Zero]

I posted on C4s version already but I'll elaborate more here because that will probably get deleted

Finally the truth about Henry! I know the whole point of Henry and Locke's predicament was meant to fool us further into thinking he was innocent but he gave the game away in that speach "Thing have happened to them that were not my fault but they have nobody to blame but me" "You have to protect me, no matter what". I took this as him implying he had been made to do things by "him", and these things may have included the kidnapping of the tailies, the murder of Shannon etc. This could also place him as one of the surgical team as somebody with a screencap pointed out on C4 (which got deleted surprisingly!).

He may be one of the others but "Henry Gale" is obviously not the brains of the operation, leaving the wallet on real Henry's corpse!? What an idiot! I guess Sayid was right all along, but why would our other friend make such a mistake? He must have known if Sayid found the grave he would dig it up but I suppose at that point he had already told Sayid the story about his wife dying etc. I also assume he didnt count on Ana seeking help from Sayid since I'm positive he knows exactly what happened to Shannon just as he knew so much about Locke's state of mind.

Ah Locke, glad to see him back to his enigmatic self, and given a mystery of his own again! Who drew the map? And how did they draw it? Somebody obviously had wanted to work something out, perhaps an escape route (calvin?) and these lockdowns must happen frequently to allow such a detailed map to be drawn during such short periods of ultraviolet light. I noticed the arrow hatch was scribbled out so it must have been abandoned for some time. The "?" had a tunnel connecting it to the Swan hatch, is this whats behind the door that Sayid couldnt open? Whatever it is thats there even the previous Swan staff clearly had no clue.

Another tragic flashback, he cant seem to catch a break can he? I was half expecting the gangster with the silly voice to be the one who paralysed Locke but that mystery remains well out in the open.

Did everyone spot Nadia, I think she was at the same house as in the picture the CIA had. But Locke had been paralysed for 3 years, how long ago was this? Sayid cant have been looking that long surely? Did Locke go bald, get paralysed, drop the false southern accent he liked talking in and get a job in a box factory straight after the events shown here? Something doesnt add up.

More food! Where did it come from? Is this linked with the Lockdown? Every two months a food shipment arrives so the hatch locks down so they know its coming? Wheres Desmond when you need him? And where is Michael!? (I'll keep asking until he comes back!)

[Mushi]

Thankies Mantis, Will save me E-mailing myself as I have stuff typed up, I may pop over accross the sea tomorrow too!

Ok I have been ranting about this for a whole week and I am still all over the place, so here goes

Well I thought this was the best episode of the season so far, I have heard people say that it was an anti climax but for me it was just brilliant.

Thankfully Locke’s flashback was slightly less cringe worthy than his flashback in Orientation, but it actually left me rather upset, to see how he had finally moved on from his father, as I believe that he had, only for him to be sucked back in to Anthony Cooper’s lies and deceit once again. Though it now does look like it will be S3 at least before we find out how he ended up in that Wheelchair.

While on the topic of Anthony Cooper, I read recently somewhere, don’t ask me where and by whom that they think that he is the “real” Sawyer, well tonight’s episode all but proved it for me, what with the conversation between Locke and Anthony in the pub. Mr Cooper also gives you the impression well least I got that while watching Deus Ex Machina that he was a bit of a womaniser in his time.

At 1st I thought that the blast doors came down if the numbers weren’t entered, but after they discovered that there had been a “drop” it was obviously to keep Desmond, or whoever Dharma expects to be down the hatch in. Which goes on with the idea that the button pushers have been brainwashed to an extent that there is an illness outside.

Which makes me wonder what exactly does happen if the numbers aren’t entered? As I don’t believe for a minute that Henry put them in, I also think he had seen/heard the numbers before, as 99% of people would have asked for the numbers to be repeated especially after he knocked himself out.

Now to the map, I have been studying a copy of the map that appeared on the blast door for a week now, and I am still clueless. Ok it is pretty obvious that it is a map of the island and where all the stations are located, but there is so much writing on it. I think what is important is, that Locke won’t have had a clue what it was, and it wasn’t down long enough for him to make neither head nor tail of it. The question is that once Locke discovers that the Lockdown wasn’t due to the numbers not being entered and due to the “drop” how long is it going to be before we see the map again. Those Hatch doors are pretty strong, so I cant really see a way of them being able to get the doors down again, Less Sayid can find a way of getting into the Hatch’s electrics and if I remember right the last time he tried that him and Jack discovered the place was covered in concrete.

When Sayid, Charlie and Ana returned I really thought that Sayid had totally lost it, I was convinced he was going to say I dug up the grave and I found your story to be true, as much as I thought Henry was iffy, I did think that Sayid was desperate to find someone to blame, after losing Shannon, and somewhat accepting Ana Lucia. I was left totally gob-smacked when Sayid said that they found the real Henry Gale in that grave.

Maybe I am developing a secret hidden soft spot for Jack I don’t know, but please really he can do so much better, “the hatch can wait till morning, if you want me to walk you back to the beach” it makes me cringe just thinking about it!

Ok more tomorrow when I am more awake! But believe me next weeks is even more of a treat! But this was the type of episode I could rant about all year, even more than a Charlie episode and well I am still living in hope of a Desmond flashback!

[Mushi]

Oh bells I forgot about Nadia turning up, I was so pre occupied with Mr Cooper possibly being Sawyer I forgot about yet another connection.

I dont know mantis, the time line has my brain totally fried, none of the dates are adding up for me, and well I am supposed to be a maths expert!

[D-Roc]

Okay..what a great episode! For me it wasnt better than Maternity Leave but it sure ran it close!

I'll start off with the flashback as that was perhaps [I agree with Manits] the most disappointing aspect of LD. Im not sure baout the time line..i need to give it some thought but I did notice the lovely Nadia [looking much better these days ]...and blow me down, Locke had yet ANOTHER job..this time as a home inspector! However convincing that was [or not] I did love the scene between him and Helen, when he asked her to marry him butr she turned him down..that almost brought a tear to my eye and though it was painful for me to watch Locke get his heart broken [ultimately by his own need for a father, again!] it was a great insignt into Locke's pain. Oh and those 'gansters' where perhaps the worst ever Lost characters..i was really dissapointed with them..not good JJ..not good! Im sure i'll add more on Anthoney and the backstory at other junctures..

Now to the good stuff! Wow..Im fast falling in love with "Henry"..I know, it's not good but in character terms the guy is amazing! I also think that in this episode he really began to let it slip [like Mantis suggested] and made it fairly obvious [well more obvious than before!] that he is an Other/Dharma. Like was mentioned above by Mush, he seemed to instantly know the numbers aswell as other little things he said and did that conveyed a sense of 'knowing'. In saying that I dont think he knows 'everything'..I reckon that he is perhaps part of another division of Dharma science and so doesnt necessarily know everything about the Swan hatch, hence why he's been so curious?..however because the numbers are perhaps important and infamous throught Dharma as a whole, he instantly recognised them when Locke reeled them out..

It was interesting to see just how impatient Locke has become...back in the long ago days of S1 he was by his own admission "a patient man"..last night however he had me screaming "Noooooo John..dont do it!!" as he hastily lunged under the blast door in a foolish attempt to get to his lover..sorry, i mean, the button! I mean his patients has been so eroded that he couldnt even wait the extra 5 seconds that it would have taken to put an extra weight under the door! Anyway, I did fear that we'd see the decapatation[sp] of Locke..thankfully this was not to be the case. And did anyone notice just how clumsey Henry was in relation to how silent and careful the Others are known to be? He was plodding along like an Ostrich[sp] when he went to the the lader to get up to the shaft! Was he doing this on purpose to convince Locke that he wasnt an other or did he genuinely fall? Hmm.

Anyway, the map on the wall..absolutely amazing and shocking for me! I didnt even consider that. Im still not sure what to make of it at the moment but it does seem to suggest that the person/people who drew it knew of the significance of the Swan hatch in relation to the other hatches? I had previoulsy assumed that the people in the hatches [and some Dharma members] didnt necessarily know about the other hatches..as Goodwins reaction when he saw the 'Arrow' hatch was one of suprise, imo and Henry's reaction to the 'Swan' hatch was also one of wonder on occassions..although he could've been ensuring that his cover wasnt blown and so played dumb..oh and Desmond certainly didnt seem to know about anything other than what was going on inside his hatch..though is he to be fully trusted?..im not so sure.

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now..obvioulsy I have more to add but i'll allow my thoughts to form first!

Oh and I think that I spotted something very interesting yesterday but im going to go back over it first!

[Mrs Ferg]

I loved this episode. So many questions but one major answer - Henry is not what he appears to be. OK here are my thoughts on what happened.

Blast Doors Coming Down
I have 2 theories why the blast doors came down; (1) To keep the people in the hatch in the hatch whilst the drop was taken place; or (2) a ploy by the others to get Henry out of that room and on Locks side.

Theory (1) - this theory assumes that either the higher beings do not relise Desmond is gone or that they do and are dropping food for the losties. My main theory is that it is some kind of human social experiment so therefore I believe that the food was dropped off for Desmond because otherwise it is nonsensical to drop the blast doors to keep people in the hatch as 99% of them are on the beach and thus more likely to see a plane; hot air ballon etc.

Theory (2); This theory centres around the notion that the blast doors came down to get Henry out of the room and further build his rapport with Locke. I think that there are people watching that Hatch and they have noticed the tension between Jack and Locke (as Henry did). Consequently, they have seen a portal to inflitrate the losties; get Henry on Lockes side. I believe that "they" (they being the others helping Henry) were reliant on Jack not coming back to the Hatch and I think it is a risk they were willing to take. Although it took a whole ep I suspect the actual real time of the doors going down to them coming back up again was not that long.

Blast Doors on their way up
Following on from theory (1) - the blast doors went up because the drop had been made. Boring. So I will continue with theory (2) - I think that Henry made the blast doors go up whilst he was "entering the numbers" again to get on the right side of Locke. I think he was communicating with someone via the computer (i think this is possible and I think it said in the video not to as a scare tactic because they did not want people communicating with either other).

Other points to note - It was good to see Locke and Sawyer playing poker together without it ending into a fist fight. Also, in regards to Henry and his fake ID, it seems that although he is intelligent he has completly underestimated Sayid and Anna.

Thats all for now folks.

[D-Roc]

Good thinking on the possibility of the Others helping HG to get out of his cell and on the other side by bringing down the blast doors Mrs Ferg. Im more inclined to go along with the 'Drop' theory that yourself and others have mentioned but nevertheless it is a good thought [and still possible]. And it would open the possibility of Dharma..or perhaps The Hanso Foundation [as HG, could be Hanso orientated methinks?] being able to monitor the inside of the hatch somehow [like you also mentioned]..

Also good thinking about HG communicating with someone via the computer..as are to really take his word that he simply entered the numbers? He hasnt exactly been truthful with them thus far has he!?

[*SP*]

I think this may have been my favourite ever episode, thus far.

One thing though that struck me though,about the theory that the blast doors came down to keep the person in the hatch while the food drop was made - the doors came down a wee bit before the alarm started up for the button. Surely this makes no sense as it trapped Locke in the living area so without going through the vent the numbers wouldn't have been entered. (Unless of course the person is meant to know what the warning of Lockdown means and get themselves to the computer before the doors come down, but surely Desmond would have thought it imperative to tell them this given the fear he had of the button not being pushed)

And also, if the hatch person is so afraid of the sickness/quarantine and the doors coming down were to reiterate this during the food drop (as someone mentioned) then surely there would be an issue with getting the food down to the hatch. I mean there looked quite a lot so it'd take a good few trips I'd have thought.

I know it seems too much of a coincidence for the blast doors not to be connected to the food drop but something doesn't ring quite true. I think for someone, like Desmond, to stay down there pushing a button without question, for that long,
displays a want of curiosity, or a degree of stupidity or fear. Maybe the vaccine from the hatch is in fact a sort of sedative, to make the person more compliant/submissive.

[Mushi]

Ok here is my tuppence worth on the blast doors as Last night I watched lost for the 1st time with Subtitles, ooooohhhh its good, very gooood why didnt I do it before I say!

The loud speeaker that Locke tinkers with actaully says something about "Attending to Protocol" so perhaps it is something that Demond and his previous button pushing friends, knew about this and they knew that when the speaker announces the Lockdown that they need to go to the computer area?

[D-Roc]

Ooo, great input guys - this gets more and more interesting [and just when i thought the hatch was getting a tad tedious! ]

SP - some interesting thoughts there..it is bemusing how someonelike Des would lack curiousity...espcially since he is or was a scientists..dont scientists have a natural lust for knowledge..are they not curious in their very nature? Hmm..something is not right..i think mr Desmond hasnt told us the whole truth personally!

As for how Henry [or whoever] was going to transport all of that food down there, Im not sure? maybe he was expecting help? One thing seems pretty clear though..Henry is not an island 'Other'. In saying that nothing is clear when it comes to lost and I really should rewatch this episode before making such a statement..so take that with a pich of salt..i might change my view come Sunday!

Mushi - WHat a good idea..i forgot about that, i think Graham S mentioned doing that way back when but it totally slipped my mind!

Hmm, "Attending Protocol"..that is most interesting! Could this be the result of Locke failing to push the button in time? Or perhaps like you inferred, it's a regular signal of which Des and Co knew about. Again..perhaps linked to the 'drop'..

So basically someone, somewhere is controlling this..as in someone must've pressed a button or activated the blast doors so that Henry could do his thing.. ..this would or could mean that the computer/button [as has been mentioned] is not relevent to the blast doors...

[Mushi]

Well when the speaker started making strange sounds, and locke fiddled with it a bit, he then went through to the computer, and it said there was 47mins to go till the numbers needed entering??

[D-Roc]

Im not sure which paret of my post youre referring to Mush..but thanks for reminding me about the timer because i have feeling that theres something relevent about when the timer reaches 46/47 and 48....wasnt the timer on 46 when Micheal first spoke to 'Walt' and on 46 when he next spoke to him? Dont take hold me on that im probably remembering wrongly, lol.

[Mushi]

You know Roco, I dont know either, its one of those days.

The point I was making was that when the warning for the Lockdown started the timer was at 48mins!

[D-Roc]

ah not to worry..any point is a valuable point when it comes to lost..the fact that you mentioned it reminded me of something that i wanted to keep an eye out for , so thanks!

[Magnovey Phoenix]

OK there is discussion thread so I wont open new one.

10\10
Everyone said that is was very suspenseful and difficult (flashbacks), culminating with map...
Amazing moments!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Okay..what a great episode! For me it wasnt better than Maternity Leave but it sure ran it close!

Wow, I can't believe I thought that! I don't know what I was sipping at the time but no way is that the opinion I currently have. Lockdown was so top-heavy on mythology, Locke and Ben, that i'd have to rate it in my current top ten.

Looking back, I still think ML is a very good episode (especially the island flashback stuff), but better than Lockdown? Nah