Suffer, Locke

[Hooting Heck]

For having NO discernible reasoning powers whatsoever!


Your beliefs took one hell of a beating tonight, so what are you gonna do?
Start believing the complete opposite, I bet?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
[choke]
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Audio Pineapple]

I'll agree that Locke almost certainly doesn't believe in the button anymore. Now he belives in... nothing, really. The point here is that the button wasn't a long-standing belief. It was something that he desperatly clung to, hoping to find a reason for everything that has happened to him (and, somewhat, to Boone.) He's been losing faith in the button and in the hatch for weeks worth of episodes now. Frequently saying that it is no longer "his." This is mainly down to his frequent encounters and conversations. with Henry

It is the island that is his long standing belief, due to it curing his paralysis after the plane crashed. I don't believe that he will have lost faith in the island, which has given him tangible proof that there is a 'reason' as opposed to the button which hasn't.

So, he won't have done a complete turnaround with the button, which I believe you to be suggesting. This has been a long time coming, basically since MOSMOF he's been losing faith bit by bit, piece by piece, recently a lot more rapidly (which is how come it is so much more noticable) and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

So he hasn't given up one belief straight away - he has melded into believing the opposite.

[Him]

It's also not very good reasoning to neglect pressing a button which you were told 'must' be pushed on mystery island.

[Hooting Heck]

Yeah well, see my previous explanations about there being no reason NOT to push the button. Why else do you reckon I thought Locke didn't possess any decent reasoning powers?

Watch him go and do something totally dumb, now. He won't be just questioning what he's done before, he'll go 180 degrees the other way. Classic middle-aged male four letter word.

It's not that I don't like him (though I don't) - I just think his character has been developing towards some kind of almighty comeuppance! A sort of exagerrated version of the mistakes he made with Boone and the guns.

[Audio Pineapple]

Nobody questions anything on the island. It is full of reactionary people who don't plan for the future. Well, apart from Eko who does it through spiritual belief and Sawyer who does it through conning.

[Him]

Originally Posted by Hooting Heck,September 13, 2006 01:06 am

Yeah well, see my previous explanations about there being no reason NOT to push the button. Why else do you reckon I thought Locke didn't possess any decent reasoning powers?

Watch him go and do something totally dumb, now. He won't be just questioning what he's done before, he'll go 180 degrees the other way. Classic middle-aged male four letter word.

I can't be bothered trawling thorugh your posts on why they should or sholuldn't push the button, so I'll just be lazy and give an irrelevant answer. (and now my post looks stupid since this prologue is bigger than it in size)

Regarding Locke about to do something stupid, I think you'll find that Jack usually beats him to it.

Also, are you a female?

[Indie88]

I'll be surprised if HH is female...although, i usualy am when a forumer reveals his/her gender/age.

Also, i'm 100% sure that locke won't push the button until it comes to a point where he has 30 seconds left, the button preser (eko, now) is somehow incapacitated and he'll have to make a snapshot decision...

Although - wouldn't it be a cool finale, if after all this time him losing his cool, it comes down to a hostage situation where eko is being held in the hatch, by an other, and locke is there too, and Eko is all "Press the button!" and the Other is all shaky cos he see's the counter coming down, and Locke just says:

"I will not press the button. I will not be the mouse in the maze with no cheese. Are you ready, Eko?"

*Beep*....*Beep*....*Beep*

[Hooting Heck]

OK, look at it this way.

In 'Orientation' (I think, after Desmond had done a runner).
Locke has already entered the numbers once (forced to by Desmond, at gunpoint), and seen that all that happens is the counter returns to 108.

Then the alarm is going off next time, and he's typed in the numbers, but he's typed in 43 instead of 42, and Hurley has said, "Yeah, 43, go ahead" (for reasons of his own). Then Jack comes back in and says it should be 42.

So now the alarm is going bonkers, and the counter is down to 10 seconds or whatever. And Locke wants to enter the numbers (press 'execute'). What does he do? He starts an argument about how JACK should be the one to press 'execute'!

Jack! The guy who DOESN'T want to enter the numbers!

Why does Locke think Jack should do it?
Because Jack needs to make a 'Leap of faith'.
"Why do you find it so hard, Jack?", says Locke.
"Why do you find it so easy, Locke?", says Jack.
"It's NEVER been easy!", says Locke.
"Well if it's NEVER been easy, why TF are you asking me why I find it so hard, you cretin?", says the scriptwriter in my head.

And more to the point, since Locke knows that nothing happens after you enter the numbers except that the counter resets to 108, why does he feel the need to start a debate about it when there's only a few seconds left? He could simply press the 'execute' button, then they'd have another 108 minutes to talk it over like rational people, and nobody would have to shout about it. What's more, if you thought that entering the numbers was really that important, you wouldn't risk NOT entering the numbers just for the sake of forcing someone else to do it for you.

No no no. John Locke needs to create an issue over it. John Locke NEEDS to win an argument about it, even if he has to create the argument in the first place.

Don't believe me?
OK, why does Locke argue with Mr.Eko about taking the computer printouts from the new hatch (the monitoring station)? So what if entering the numbers is pointless? So what if the computer printouts are useless? If they're pointless/useless/worthless, what's the point arguing with Mr.Eko about taking them?
Why can't John Locke just say, "Yeah, go on Eko, fill your boots"?
Why can't John Locke just say to himself, "Ah well, let Mr.Eko take them back. That's his problem, if he wants to do that. Taking a few useless computer printouts won't do any good, but then again it can't do any harm either, so why kick up a stink about it?"

Come to think of it, even if Locke thinks entering the numbers is a waste of time, is it any skin off Locke's nose if Eko decides to waste his time entering the numbers?

Sorry folks, that's not the way Locke's mind works; that's not the way Locke's mind has ever worked. John Locke is just one of those people who needs to feel certain about something, needs to feel that he's right.
And when he finds out he wasn't right, he'll simply flip to the opposite point of view, and think that anyone who agrees with (what he previously thought) is either ignorant or stupid. When in fact, it's Locke who is stupid.

[Him]

How can you say nothing happens when the counter runs out if it hasn't yet?

[Hooting Heck]

Simple.
I never said that nothing happens when the counter runs out.
I said all that happens (when you enter the numbers) is the counter returns to 108.

Want me to quote it for you?

That means there's no need to fight over entering the numbers when the counter is down to the last few seconds. Just enter them, counter returns to 108, NO HARM DONE. All that happens is you get another 108 minutes to debate the issue like a reasonable person.

There's no need to settle the argument immediately. Unless your name is John Locke and you have some kind of personality defect or character flaw that makes it really important to create unnecessary clashes of willpower (that are irrelevant to the task at hand).

PS.
Jack was just as bad. If he was so sure that entering the numbers was pointless, why did he press 'execute'?
But just because Jack's actions made no sense, that doesn't mean Locke's did. If Locke was so convinced (the man of faith) about the need to enter the numbers, why did he start an argument about it with Jack? Locke could have just ignored Jack and got on with the job.

[Murgatroyd]

I can only assume Locke wanted to use the opportunity to force the union of what were at the time two opposing philosophical mindsets, but, sadly, this relationship has only been explored since then through petty childish bickering about who keeps secrets from whom (when in this season has the promised faith/science dichotomy really been explored?). If he did it under pressure of the countdown, it probably fazed Jack somewhat and made him more likely to comply - and the coincidence of his knowing Desmond and the general weirdness of the situation were finally beginning to hit home at that point, making him doubt his resolutely unimaginative stance of a few episodes previous (the idea that the worst thing they could possibly find in the hatch was a bare shelter was a bit ludicrous after all they'd been through on that island). And had Locke been the first one to bow to the pressure and press the button, Jack could've continued to use it against him in every subsequent argument: 'You pushed the button that other time; you'll push it again this time, ergo I don't have to have any part in it'. It was, in retrospect, the opportune moment.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Him,September 13, 2006 12:09 am

It's also not very good reasoning to neglect pressing a button which you were told 'must' be pushed on mystery island.

Maybe so but choice is also important..

Locke knows the value and importance of choice and impowerment..because without that theyre mere bait..pawns in a game. I believe that is what he once taught Charlie and he is perhaps begining to believe that himself. He knows that blind faith can be dangerous and misleading.

Im glad that Locke is at least asking questions now and thinking for himself ratherb than believing everything that he's been told. And anyway, if Locke doesnt believe in the button anymore at least EKo does..Locke's done his stint..it's time for him to move on to the next stage now, imo.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Hooting Heck,September 13, 2006 01:06 am

Yeah well, see my previous explanations about there being no reason NOT to push the button. Why else do you reckon I thought Locke didn't possess any decent reasoning powers?

Watch him go and do something totally dumb, now. He won't be just questioning what he's done before, he'll go 180 degrees the other way. Classic middle-aged male four letter word.

It's not that I don't like him (though I don't) - I just think his character has been developing towards some kind of almighty comeuppance! A sort of exagerrated version of the mistakes he made with Boone and the guns.

This is whgat connects so many people to Locke. He's a dreamer but he also makes mistakes..he's very human in that way and 2.21 reminded us of that.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Hooting Heck,September 14, 2006 01:09 am

OK, look at it this way.

In 'Orientation' (I think, after Desmond had done a runner).
Locke has already entered the numbers once (forced to by Desmond, at gunpoint), and seen that all that happens is the counter returns to 108.

Then the alarm is going off next time, and he's typed in the numbers, but he's typed in 43 instead of 42, and Hurley has said, "Yeah, 43, go ahead" (for reasons of his own). Then Jack comes back in and says it should be 42.

So now the alarm is going bonkers, and the counter is down to 10 seconds or whatever. And Locke wants to enter the numbers (press 'execute'). What does he do? He starts an argument about how JACK should be the one to press 'execute'!

Jack! The guy who DOESN'T want to enter the numbers!

Why does Locke think Jack should do it?
Because Jack needs to make a 'Leap of faith'.
"Why do you find it so hard, Jack?", says Locke.
"Why do you find it so easy, Locke?", says Jack.
"It's NEVER been easy!", says Locke.
"Well if it's NEVER been easy, why TF are you asking me why I find it so hard, you cretin?", says the scriptwriter in my head.

And more to the point, since Locke knows that nothing happens after you enter the numbers except that the counter resets to 108, why does he feel the need to start a debate about it when there's only a few seconds left? He could simply press the 'execute' button, then they'd have another 108 minutes to talk it over like rational people, and nobody would have to shout about it. What's more, if you thought that entering the numbers was really that important, you wouldn't risk NOT entering the numbers just for the sake of forcing someone else to do it for you.

No no no. John Locke needs to create an issue over it. John Locke NEEDS to win an argument about it, even if he has to create the argument in the first place.

Don't believe me?
OK, why does Locke argue with Mr.Eko about taking the computer printouts from the new hatch (the monitoring station)? So what if entering the numbers is pointless? So what if the computer printouts are useless? If they're pointless/useless/worthless, what's the point arguing with Mr.Eko about taking them?
Why can't John Locke just say, "Yeah, go on Eko, fill your boots"?
Why can't John Locke just say to himself, "Ah well, let Mr.Eko take them back. That's his problem, if he wants to do that. Taking a few useless computer printouts won't do any good, but then again it can't do any harm either, so why kick up a stink about it?"

Come to think of it, even if Locke thinks entering the numbers is a waste of time, is it any skin off Locke's nose if Eko decides to waste his time entering the numbers?

Sorry folks, that's not the way Locke's mind works; that's not the way Locke's mind has ever worked. John Locke is just one of those people who needs to feel certain about something, needs to feel that he's right.
And when he finds out he wasn't right, he'll simply flip to the opposite point of view, and think that anyone who agrees with (what he previously thought) is either ignorant or stupid. When in fact, it's Locke who is stupid.

At that stage Locke didnt know the counter ticked over to the gluphs when the button wasnt pushed..the whole leap pf faith scene with Jack was about a month before that event happened. Also, the glyphs are probably a 'fail-safe'..had Locke not entered the numbers at all then something 'may' have happened..or perhaps something has already but it's just not know yet.

Also, Locke didnt want to argue with Jack..the poinbt of Locke asking him to take a leap of faith was because Locke knew it was a 2 man job..he knew that he needed Jack to believe in the button like he did. For example, remember this -

Hurely "I dont want to do it, i dont want to be in charge of the food"

Locke "Everyone has a job Hurley..my job is to make everyone believe in pushing the button" [owtte]

You see...Locke saw HIS role as making people believe that the button was important and that it needed pressing every 108 minutes. Therefore getting Jack onboard was CRUCIAL..he knew that he needed JAck onboard from the start otherwise there would be little point because if the [other] leader didnt believe then the rest of the people wouldnt. See..theres far more logic to Locke than you give him credit for. He took a risk letting the number run down so much in Orientation..but it was a risk he felt he had to take.

As for his cynism over Eko taking the printouts..well thats a classic exmaple of lost faith is it not? Of course Locke is goign to question Eko's sudden belief in the button..because Locke deep down still wants to believe yet he cant..he's been through too much, had too many knocks. And now he see's himself in Eko [literally]..he see's the same ferver and drive that he once shown in the hatch/button and can now see how foolish he was [in his opinion]. A perfectly believable repsonse from Locke imo.

[Hooting Heck]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,September 14, 2006 07:04 am

I can only assume Locke wanted to use the opportunity to force the union of what were at the time two opposing philosophical mindsets, but, sadly, this relationship has only been explored since then through petty childish bickering about who keeps secrets from whom (when in this season has the promised faith/science dichotomy really been explored?). If he did it under pressure of the countdown, it probably fazed Jack somewhat and made him more likely to comply - and the coincidence of his knowing Desmond and the general weirdness of the situation were finally beginning to hit home at that point, making him doubt his resolutely unimaginative stance of a few episodes previous (the idea that the worst thing they could possibly find in the hatch was a bare shelter was a bit ludicrous after all they'd been through on that island). And had Locke been the first one to bow to the pressure and press the button, Jack could've continued to use it against him in every subsequent argument: 'You pushed the button that other time; you'll push it again this time, ergo I don't have to have any part in it'. It was, in retrospect, the opportune moment.

Locke didn't have a clue what he was doing, or what he was talking about.

Hence all the logic in

"Why do you find it so hard?"
"Why do you find it so easy?"
"It's never been easy!"

He's a twerp!