What does the Island/Cerberus/etc. want for Locke?

[Him]

It seems now (to me at least) that The Island wanted Locke to see inside the Pearl before opening the Swan, but 'lost his way' and ended up dedicated to The Swan's button before his he could realise that it's only an experiment. In Deus Ex Machina, Was Boone expected to see the Question Mark like Eko did, leading to The Pearl discovery, not necessarily just to die? If things had worked out that way, as the island might have expected/wanted, what would this have meant for Locke and the timeline of Lost?

I was considering that perhaps Cerberus (assuming it is the black smoke) broke free of Dharma's control, and is now directing Locke to exposing Dharma's falsehood, as opening the pearl before the swan would help, and possibly the idea that the plane crash was a hoax, to the other survivors. This would to a certain extent fulfil Locke, I feel, but I do not know how well having faith in some sort of scientifically advanced machine, as Cerberus/The Black Smoke appears to be, would go down with him.

Any thoughts?

[Original]

That is actually a really good point.

Maybe they were supposed to discover the 'pearl' hatch, before the 'swan'


I definetly agree, I wonder why the island wanted locke to go with eko.
Why did he need to 'help' Locke?

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by Him,September 06, 2006 09:47 pm

It seems now (to me at least) that The Island wanted Locke to see inside the Pearl before opening the Swan, but 'lost his way' and ended up dedicated to The Swan's button before his he could realise that it's only an experiment. In Deus Ex Machina, Was Boone expected to see the Question Mark like Eko did, leading to The Pearl discovery, not necessarily just to die? If things had worked out that way, as the island might have expected/wanted, what would this have meant for Locke and the timeline of Lost?

Interesting perspective

Since Boone 'choose' possible savation over possible 'answers' [choosing the radio instead of looking out of the window] does that mean that there is no such thing as destiny, presuming 'they' are manipulating the losties into following certain path[s] it would seem they failed in this respect and punished Boone

Another spin on it, is that Boone was 'too close' to the truth, and so 'they' caused the accident with the intent of covering up the 'pearl'

It's really funny how close they were, just thinking back to the Sayid - Locke scene at the plane, where Locke admits to knocking Sayid out. They were so close :P

[esn]

well they could have been saved a lot of bother getting all that dynamite - and Arzt would still be with us

But in all seriousness I think Boones death was meant to test Locke, has was Ekos test was in finding his brother. I also belive that Charlie has a link here since this plane was filled with his achilles heel - the herione so I think hes implicated has well. But after passing thier tests they were taken there for the next stage - whatever that might be im not sure.

[Him]

Since Boone 'choose' possible savation over possible 'answers' [choosing the radio instead of looking out of the window] does that mean that there is no such thing as destiny, presuming 'they' are manipulating the losties into following certain path[s] it would seem they failed in this respect and punished Boone

I really like this idea, but it might be a bit unfair on Boone, as he was pretty much told by Locke to go and see what was in the plane, not keep an eye open or anything like that. It reminds me of some sort of Predestination (I think, by no coincidence, Calvinism) whereby people have a destiny that they have the choice to reject.

It just occurred to me that having Locke disabled at that point would have increased his chances of finding the hatch as well (siting on a big bit of metal...), so perhaps that was another reason for the Island taking back the use of his legs?

I definetly agree, I wonder why the island wanted locke to go with eko.
Why did he need to 'help' Locke?

I feel that under Locke's current circumstances (broken leg, doubt in the button and with Michael's small killing spree), getting Eko rather than Locke to experience a prophetic vision was a much better idea, as I doubt Locke would have pushed on alone.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by Him,September 06, 2006 11:27 pm

I really like this idea, but it might be a bit unfair on Boone, as he was pretty much told by Locke to go and see what was in the plane, not keep an eye open or anything like that. It reminds me of some sort of Predestination (I think, by no coincidence, Calvinism) whereby people have a destiny that they have the choice to reject.

Somewhere else on the forum [episode thread?] someone said how 'Theresa Falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs" - might have been a clue to where the hatch [and Lockes answers] actually were, as well of course as being a riddle to Boones death

[St. Anger]

Originally Posted by Him,September 06, 2006 10:27 pm

I really like this idea, but it might be a bit unfair on Boone, as he was pretty much told by Locke to go and see what was in the plane, not keep an eye open or anything like that. It reminds me of some sort of Predestination (I think, by no coincidence, Calvinism) whereby people have a destiny that they have the choice to reject.

It just occurred to me that having Locke disabled at that point would have increased his chances of finding the hatch as well (siting on a big bit of metal...), so perhaps that was another reason for the Island taking back the use of his legs?

I feel that under Locke's current circumstances (broken leg, doubt in the button and with Michael's small killing spree), getting Eko rather than Locke to experience a prophetic vision was a much better idea, as I doubt Locke would have pushed on alone.

How the hell can the island take away Locke' leg use. Very interesting.

Boone was cool man.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Him,September 06, 2006 09:47 pm

It seems now (to me at least) that The Island wanted Locke to see inside the Pearl before opening the Swan, but 'lost his way' and ended up dedicated to The Swan's button before his he could realise that it's only an experiment. In Deus Ex Machina, Was Boone expected to see the Question Mark like Eko did, leading to The Pearl discovery, not necessarily just to die? If things had worked out that way, as the island might have expected/wanted, what would this have meant for Locke and the timeline of Lost?

I was considering that perhaps Cerberus (assuming it is the black smoke) broke free of Dharma's control, and is now directing Locke to exposing Dharma's falsehood, as opening the pearl before the swan would help, and possibly the idea that the plane crash was a hoax, to the other survivors. This would to a certain extent fulfil Locke, I feel, but I do not know how well having faith in some sort of scientifically advanced machine, as Cerberus/The Black Smoke appears to be, would go down with him.

Any thoughts?

Very good and interesting perspective there Him!

I have always felt that Boone was a sacrifice that the island saw as necessary to test Locke's faith and commitment. I dont for one minute think that Locke knew Boone would die..but rather he assumed that Boone getting slightly scrapped up was a risk worth taking. Anyway, what you said is interesting and potentially earth shattering because say youre on the right lines and Boone wasnt meant to die..but to see the hatch/question mark instead..then this would mean that Locke had jumped the chain of events and bypassed the signs that were guiding him ["John has lost his way"]. Therefore...a bit like Snakes and ladders ["Like to play games, John?" - "Absolutely!"] Locke has had to go back..back to the time where his island faith was first crushed and then remarkably falsely reignited [light from the Swan hatch]. I find this so interesting.

Also, it may indeed be the case that Cerberus/BS[?] attakced Locke and tried to drag him down the hle in order to take him to the pearl hatch? Afterall Eko mentioned the 'river' that Locke had transcribed onto his map - what if it's not a river but an underground tunnel network [like many of us have thought]..maybe Jack's [and Kates] intervention prevented Locke from finding out about the Pearl hatch alot earlier?

And thats a good thought about the BSbeing out of control. I have thought that possible since back in S1 and now it does seem even more likely.

This is an interestin topic that i will come back to..need to go and read everyone else's thoughts on this first.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by E PLURIBUS UNUM,September 06, 2006 10:08 pm

so 'they' caused the accident with the intent of covering up the 'pearl'

Yes, good point E -personally im now split between the two theories now. Though what you said has been my long held belief [although im more with the 'test of faith'/scarifice motive behind 'them' toppling the plane.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Him

It just occurred to me that having Locke disabled at that point would have increased his chances of finding the hatch as well (siting on a big bit of metal...), so perhaps that was another reason for the Island taking back the use of his legs?

See that was my main gripe about this theory - that Locke had lost the power in his legs so it seemed [more] likely that 'they' wanted Boone to go up to the plane so they could kill him and test John, then if he passed the test give him his legs back. But what you said can also work. It's perhaps not quite as sensational and twisted as Boones 'safirice' theory but it is possible that they took away his legs mainly for him to find the hatch from his ground-level perspective.

Ahh..ive just remembered though - this episode had many parallels between pre-island events and island events..some of them being:

Anthony calling Locke "son" - Locke calling Boone "son"

Anthony and Locke hunting for 'birds' - Locke and Boone hunting for a 'bird' [aka Plane]

Anthony 'sacrificing' Locke for his kidney - Locke [unwittingly] sacrificing Boone for answers

That last one i feel is very important...and without the Boone 'scarificial lamb' element im not sure it quite works? Although i suppose the fact that Boone died, regardless of whether it was at the hands of the 'island' or not, still makes it a parallel in terms of him being sacrificed?

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 07, 2006 11:58 am

Anyway, what you said is interesting and potentially earth shattering because say youre on the right lines and Boone wasnt meant to die..but to see the hatch/question mark instead..then this would mean that Locke had jumped the chain of events and bypassed the signs that were guiding him ["John has lost his way"]. Therefore...a bit like Snakes and ladders ["Like to play games, John?" - "Absolutely!"] Locke has had to go back..back to the time where his island faith was first crushed and then remarkably falsely reignited [light from the Swan hatch]. I find this so interesting.

Interesting, the sense in which this highlights those working for Dharma (even unwillingly, like Desmond) scuppering the workings of perhaps the more mystical forces on the island - the Black Smoke, the prescient dreams and whatever was working behind them to direct Locke away from the Swan and towards the Pearl. It was no fault of Dharma's, to be fair, that Locke either happened upon his hatch (possibly it was a deliberate ploy of Ethan and the Others though) or that he and Boone failed to notice the question mark, but Desmond's turning on the light reignited Locke's faith in the Swan and so turned him away from the path that his dreams apparently wanted him to follow. I wonder if that's representative of the bigger picture: Dharma's messing up the intentions of other forces on the island. It does at least suggest two entities pulling in different directions.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by E PLURIBUS UNUM,September 06, 2006 11:47 pm

Somewhere else on the forum [episode thread?] someone said how 'Theresa Falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs" - might have been a clue to where the hatch [and Lockes answers] actually were, as well of course as being a riddle to Boones death

Yeah, that was me :P ..I agree...there was definetely an underlying clue and indeed an island/pre-island parallel there.

I think it;s more a pre-curser to Boone's death in that Teresa went up the stairs, then fell down and broke her neck and died....a parallel to how Boone climbed up the cliff only to fall down, break his neck and die. [ok, he didnt break his neck, but you know what i mean :P ].

Though im sure [like you say] it can also apply to Locke [and Eko]. Notice how Eko climbs up the cliff in order for Locke [and himself] to climb down the ladder to the pearl. Also [going a bit off topic here] before Eko climbed up the cliff, Eko was Locke [if you get me?] in dream terms. A hybridising of the subconcious, if you will :P So EKo basically carried out Lockes vision..not sure where im going with this but thought id mention it, lol

[*SP*]

That's really interesting! I hadn't thought of that but I agree that perhaps Locke was being 'led' to the ? and was supposed to find it and not the Swan hatch. That would explain why he was shown the vision that took him there.

So perhaps the Cerberus is bringing Eko into it to lead Locke back on the correct path. But if the numbers/button pushing has been 'outed' as just an experiment, why does Eko seem so determined that it must carry on? He said it was of the utmost importance and he would push it of no one else did. I know Yemi tol