Praise the Lord..Locke is CLEAN!!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Yes, he did. He may not have known that that fence "killed" but he had an idea that it would cause some injury, and when he shoved Mikey over it, he wanted to injure him. And the reason - to stop him blabbing about Locke being in a wheel chair.

Hmm, im not so sure Beach..i sincerely dont think Locke had it in his mind to kill Mikky. Yes, a small part of him may have had an inkling 'somehthing' bad might happen but then im sure that thought happens to most of us when we cross the road or when we have one too many on night out.

I think Lockes only crime was that of impatience..not of a real desire to kill or even maim a man. Lets not forget that Locke is perhaps the least likely to kill out of all the losties.

It may take murderer off his slate, but it's like forgiving Sun for cheating on Jin in the first place, just becuase the baby is Jin's. IT makes no sense...the intent was there.

imo thats different tho Beach - Lockes reaction to push Mik through the fence was not pre-meditated..Suns decision to sleep around was. Locke didnt know the nature of the fence..indeed to Locke it was just that..a fence. Im pretty sure Sun knew the possible consequences of sleeping with another man. For me, Sun has no redemption because she even continued to lie (or withold) to Jin about it. Locke apologied for apparently killing Mikky..Locke also didnt kill the man in the first place (unless Mik really did rebirth)..Sun on the otherhand actually did sleep with J-Lee..

I just don't like how you can so easily forgive Locke for an act where he could've potentially killed someone, just because the person isn't actually dead. It makes no sense.

But i think it does make sense Beach. I mean Locke didnt kill Mikhail - Locke also didnt know what the fence would do. Yes, he shouldve execised more caution, but there was no real intent on Lockes part.

I can forgive Locke because even when i believed Mik was dead, i still want upset with him..i didnt see how he was ever guilty of murder (as my previous posts a few weeks ago suggest). He was guilty of impatience and Mik's apparent death cut me deep..but i accepted that it was a terrible accident

[D-Roc]

[quote=Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Personally i would say he was clean - of course i would, because how can one call anyone a murderer if they havent killed anyone

Had Duckett survived then i wouldnt call Ford a murderer - unfornutely Sawyer *did* kill Ducks'..

Furthermore Sawyer also killed an Other on the island (2x24)

(Sorry JB, had to)

Nobody's saying he's a murderer, but we are saying that he was a murderer before we discovered that Mikey was alive. It's the fact that he did "kill" this man, and that he intended to hurt him in some way which is wrong. Especially due to the fact he was forgiven for it, and is now being praised as if he did nothing wrong. Other characters have been condemed for such acts.

But how can one be a murderer if the person you claim he murdered is still alive? Isnt that more to do with us not knowing the whole picture at the time rather than Locke *ever* being a murderer? It's like the film 6th sense - that slight of hand which makes us think one way, only for the truth to be completly different.

Locke's only cime was impatience..and lets face it, that man has been through alot..some might say he's displayed remarkable patience throught most of his life, hence we perhaps should allow him the mistake of losing that patience with mikky - especially considering Mikky is alive ..all is well

No, you wouldn't have the right to call him a murderer.

Thats what in said - if Ford hadnt kill Duckett then i wouldnt call him a murderer - unfortunately...he did kill him..and the Other guy

And yes, he did kill him, and that was wrong, (but yet so right if it had been true) but Sawyer being condemed for this means that Locke should be condemed for his "murder" even if afterwards it turned out by some miracle Mikey was alive, because it proved that on some level he had the idea to hurt someone in his mind.

Im sorry Beach i dont get that - Locke *didnt* kill Mikky..Sawyer did kill Duckett..hence why we can forgive Locke and why we have a right to lambast Ford

Having murder in ones mind (if that is what Locke had..im still not sure..but hey..) doesnt make one a murderer though Beach..if it did then half of this world would be behind bars id imagine..:P

He killed that Other in self-defence.

A kill is a kill tho - like you seem to be trying to suggest with Locke...

[*SP*]

You could go as far as to say that Locke 'saved' Mikhail. If the theory that Mikhail entered into some kind of comatose state or paralysis is correct then Locke may well have done him a favour. Not only did it enable him to get away from Sayid and Kate, Mikhail was also spared the shame of being taken to Ben as their prisoner, who was partially responsible for the Losties infiltrating the Others camp. Well done Locke, my little angel!

With regards Beachy and JBs' comments. Of course if Sawyer hadn't shot Duckett I would retract my comments about him being a cold blooded killer. He's no angel but wouldn't be a killer. I think the point Beachy is making though that if Sawyer had shot Duckett but it hadn't been fatal, he couldn't be considered a murderer. Well, I guess that's a fair point. But I think the difference here is intent. OK Locke was becoming frustrated and had voiced the opinion that he wanted Mikhail eliminated. But, I don't think he plotted to kill him. (I often plan ways in which I could exterminate my estranged hubby but obviously I'd never ever try to, or actually want to kill him lol!!!) Sawyer on the other hand had made it his sole aim in life to kill a man (albeit he got the wrong one) so to me that, along with the fact he went out, bought a gun and specifically sought out a man with the intention of ending his life makes him a killer. I think whether or not Duckett had survived the shot Sawyer could be considered a murderer.

[The_other_other]

at the sun haters here

You ask why she hasnt told jin KoR? Because the man would probably beat her to death if she did, remember michael and the watch? Jin goes too far im afraid. Anyway this apart i dont think she cares about her own safety (as this episode indicated) she doesnt tell jin because she doesnt want to hurt him.

Are you saying its more ethical for someone to tell their husband/wife they cheated on them, destroying that persons life, instead of keeping quiet about it and letting the dust settle?

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by *SP*

*I think the point Beachy is making though that if Sawyer had shot Duckett but it hadn't been fatal, he couldn't be considered a murderer.**Well, I guess that's a fair point.**

Thank you SP. Too much revision has made my mind less able to form eloquent answers...but you summed it up nicely.

[esn]

Originally Posted by b-r-a-d

Of course Locke tried to kill him esn, he even had that look on his face to say he didnt care! Like a sarcastic oops! God i HATE him!

Im going to have to watch that again...

but from what I remember, he just wanted to see what would happen...

although he wanted him dead though and still has that on his concious, and therefore is unclean.

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Thank you SP. Too much revision has made my mind less able to form eloquent answers...but you summed it up nicely.

i think everyone agrees with this. But then sawyer did shoot an other in the back while he was running away, dont give me no self defence :P

[*SP*]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Thank you SP. Too much revision has made my mind less able to form eloquent answers...but you summed it up nicely.

You're welcome B. Love the way you took that quote out of context though LOL. You're trying to make me sound like a defender of Sawyer!!

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by The_other_other

i think everyone agrees with this. But then sawyer did shoot an other in the back while he was running away, dont give me no self defence :P

Don't make me poke you. :P

Originally Posted by SP

You're welcome B. Love the way you took that quote out of context though LOL. You're trying to make me sound like a defender of Sawyer!!

Lol, it wasn't intentional. It was just useful for me to do it that way to back up my point....but now that you point it out....lol :P

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Don't make me poke you. :P

what im just telling it like it is

[haelle03]

I still hate him.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by haelle03

I still hate him.

*places hand on Haelle's forehead* She means no harm dear Locke..please forgive her

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by The_other_other

at the sun haters here

You ask why she hasnt told jin KoR? Because the man would probably beat her to death if she did, remember michael and the watch? Jin goes too far im afraid.

Hmm, but didnt you say somewhere that you dont think Jin would lay a hand on her (i think it was you..could be wrong)?

I dont think Sun has any excuse not to tell Jin that the baby could be Jae Lee's - a man has the right to know, just like a women would if it was the other way around. I hear what you're saying about her possibly being scared, but then is this 'really' a good reason to not tell him..or is it merely an excuse? Because 'if' it really came down to it she would have plenty of protection on that island - and at any rate i dont see Jin beating her up..of course it's possible but as you said Jin has come along way in 90 days.

Anyway this apart i dont think she cares about her own safety (as this episode indicated) she doesnt tell jin because she doesnt want to hurt him.

I dont believe that..ok that perhaps comes into it, but i think the overriding reason for her deceit is that she is a coward. She needs to tell him..theres nothing worse in a relationship than lies and deceit..it would be a shame to see a potentially beautiful relationship have time and lies catch up with it. Sun needs to do the right thing imo and tell her man whats what. Who knows, perhaps Jin will still love her and will come to love the baby (assuming they both live, whihc aint a given)..but she has to take that chance and she has to have faith that Jin's love for her is strong enough that he will forgive her. Im not saying that Sun is an out and out witch (tho she does come close), but she owes it to Jinbo to confess.. Afterall, with Kwon not being Jins real father and Jin not knowing, its kinda ironic really..perhaps Sun believes that if it worked for Kwon than it can work for Baby Jinbo..but then she should look at the effect of protecting a child from shame can do..how distant it can make them (i.e Jin towards Kwon, tho he loves him). She shouldnt let this baby come into the world under the pretence of it being Jins imo, it will only serve to make her over protect it from potential shame (or protect herself from shame?)..it's not worth it. Please tell him Sun..please

Are you saying its more ethical for someone to tell their husband/wife they cheated on them, destroying that persons life, instead of keeping quiet about it and letting the dust settle?

It's not a case of Ethics iin my view. When it comes to love and relationships, ethics shouldnt even come into it. Its a case of love and truth and respect for the one you love. Sun made a mistake (tho im not so sure she truely regrets it, but hey)..i can just about accept that..cos everyone makes mistakes..but to then conseal that mistake and do continue to do so with the pregnancy thing is just plain wrong. The way i see it if you truely love someone you tell them the truth..though it might take every ouce within you to do it, you must eventually do it - even at the risk of losing them, because thats what love is about..you take the leap of faith that the person you value more than anyone else will see it in them to forgive you. Forgiveness is not something which is automatic..it has to be earned and the only way Sun can earn Jins forgiveness is to tell him the truth..the whoel truth..

Just my opinion, but i really do think that Sun has to take that chance and tell Jin..she owes him that much..