Who's the most selfish out of...

[Kiowa Warrior]

...Locke and Jack?

After talking about this in the battle of the groups forum, I was just wondering who everyone in general thinks is more selfish. (Yes there could have been an option that says they're just as selfish as each other, but where's the fun in that? )

Locke has gone to great lengths to ensure that he stays on the Island and so retains the use of his legs, and yes he has caused pain to others, such as when he hit Sayid over the head back in S1 and just now when he prevented Jack and Juliet from going home by blowing up the sub, but given his past who can blame him for looking out for himself and wanting to keep this great new life he's been given? And he's not all that selfish at all, since unlike other people he helps others soley out of the goodness of his heart, and he even took time to argue Kate's defence before he left with the Others.

Yes Jack does help everyone if they need a doctor and a leader, but I think he's far more selfish than Locke is. When he made the deal with Ben to go home he didn't even think of asking if anyone else could go home with him...maybe Ben would have said no, but he didn't even try. Jack was prepared to go sailing off with barely a thought for anyone else, just because he saw Kate and Sawyer having some quality time together in the cage. And yes Jack's had a tough time of it both in the past and on the Island, but it's not as bad as Locke's I believe. Jack gives off the impression that he's there to help everyone whereas with Locke it's more expected that he's going to go off and do his own thing, and yet Jack is the one who so readily turns his back on his people when he feels like it. He's the one who will save a man's life and then put it in danger just because he wants to, and if that's not selfish I don't know what is.

(And no prizes for guessing which option I voted for )

[Murgatroyd]

Tricky. In many ways, I kind of think it's Locke, because he's been driven by his own needs (though he dresses them up as the demands of 'the island) since pretty much the beginning - and though often his needs are useful to other people (catching boar), other times they're quite the opposite (blowing up subs/communication ports, etc). But... Locke has more reason to be self-centred than Jack does. He's had this rubbish little life, been screwed over by his own parents, been belittled by his boss and longed quite understandably for a sense of higher purpose for years. So he's a lot easier to forgive. In some ways that's unfair on Jack - he's spent a long time being selfless, so this sudden turnaround is kind of galling to the extent that it seems to eradicate all that went before it. Having been a selfless person shouldn't technically mean you get more stick than someone who's been selfish for years. But... that's pretty much how I feel about it. And his reasons are *awful*... childish nonsense about having his heart broken by someone he wasn't even in a relationship with (and he was kidding himself if he thought she was all about him).

So I think Locke, on balance, is more (and more frequently) driven by selfishness than Jack. But he has a lot of more of my sympathy nonetheless.

[L-BSE*84]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

So I think Locke, on balance, is more (and more frequently) driven by selfishness than Jack.

okay, yea thats a really good (and simple!) way of putting it.

[E Pluribus Unum]

I dunno, I suppose I'd want the: 'they're both as selfish as each other' option

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior

He's the one who will save a man's life and then put it in danger just because he wants to, and if that's not selfish I don't know what is.

I'm not sure how that's selfish? (Doing something for his own gain?) It's not like he ever said, "oh you lot go off into the jungle while I stay here, safe as chips" - in fact that's more or less the opposite of what Jack would do.

And I don't remember Jack having to force anyone along on missions, he restricted who came along - but I think that's because he didn't want individual's, who couldn't handle themselves (gun experience), being in a situation where they'd end up shooting each other. I think Jack's selfish acts can be reduced to:
His need to fix people, but not for them - for himself, and the deal to leave the island (which, by the way, I've seen people argue that Locke has no allegiance to the Losties and so isn't a traitor, the same could be said in this situation for Jack).

Locke, Locke, Locke...
I have to say if I were on the island I'd probably hate the guy now. Yes he's had a horrible, horrible life. But does that justify making everyone else’s life miserable? (In fact, he should fit in well with the Others )

And I never understood the need to blow up the Sub so he didn't have to leave; all he would have to do is NOT leave when everyone else got on the Sub, huh?

In conclusion; I'm a believer in both of them being strong together than alone - I think they both have great personality traits and both have frightening ones. But most selfish - I've got to say Locke at the moment

[The Wizard]

I think Locke is maybe more selfish, but only probably because, just because he crashed on an island with these people, doesn't necessarily mean he has to help them out

[-x-madegurl-x-]

Locke defo.
He didn't need to blow up the submarine just coz he didn't want to go home!

[b-r-a-d]

Locke is more selfish!

Jack wasnt being selfish when he done the deal to get of the Island, he felt he saved Kate and Sawyer from the Others and if they never came back for him they wouldnt of known so its notreally selfishness. When they did come back he did say he would send help for them! I think Jack getting off the Island would of been a good thing as there is more chance for teh rest to be saved!

Locke blowing up the submarine was probably the most selfish act ever done on the Island. By blowing it up he has ruined the chances of anyone being rescued. There are children on that island and even a baby who will have a much better chance of a survival in the real world. If Jack ever died and Aaron became ill they would just have to watch that baby die!

[Kennindra47]

I prefer Jack to Locke but still voted that Jack is more selfish. I think that in the end, it will turn out that Locke has done everything for the better. He was a wider view of the situation and the island. And although, Jack isnt exactly "selfish", i think he does things without looking at the bigger picture like Locke does. Locke doesnt do things for no reason.

[The_other_other]

on the subject of jack and 'his need to fix people' being for his own gain, is there anyone who doesnt help people for their own gain? Im thinking of the whole 'good deeds make you feel better about yourself' deal, i wonder if anyone is actually entirely selfless when curing someone of a desease or giving money to charity

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by E PLURIBUS UNUM

I'm not sure how that's selfish? (Doing something for his own gain?) It's not like he ever said, "oh you lot go off into the jungle while I stay here, safe as chips" - in fact that's more or less the opposite of what Jack would do.

It's selfish because when Ben asked him to perform an operation to save his life, Jack refused to do so. Then when Kate tearfully told him that Sawyer would be killed if he didn't do it Jack still refused. Jack only did the op after seeing Kate choose Sawyer over him, and he did it in order to get off the island because his poor heart was broken...he didn't choose to do the op out of the goodness of his heart at all, and only did it because his feelings changed, and he decided that now was the time he felt like accepting what Ben was offering.

And I don't remember Jack having to force anyone along on missions, he restricted who came along - but I think that's because he didn't want individual's, who couldn't handle themselves (gun experience), being in a situation where they'd end up shooting each other. I think Jack's selfish acts can be reduced to:
His need to fix people, but not for them - for himself, and the deal to leave the island (which, by the way, I've seen people argue that Locke has no allegiance to the Losties and so isn't a traitor, the same could be said in this situation for Jack).

Jack restricted who would come along on the missions because he believed that was what was for the best...his mentaility was that the only people worth having by his side was those that could fire a gun or were physically strong enough, and that's quite a narrow minded and, dare I say it, arrogant approach to take. When Locke gave out an open invitation for people to come along to the Pearl he was more than happy for Nikki to come along, and Nikki was the one that pointed out about the various tvs...what's the betting that Jack would have refused point blank for Nikki to come along, just because on the surface she doesn't seem like the best candidate for the job?

Locke, Locke, Locke...
I have to say if I were on the island I'd probably hate the guy now. Yes he's had a horrible, horrible life. But does that justify making everyone else’s life miserable? (In fact, he should fit in well with the Others )

Aww, poor Locke.. And he hasn't made everyone else's lives miserable - on the contrary he made Charlie, Claire, Boone (well until he died) and a whole lot of other people happy as a result of his actions. Compared to certain other characters, like say Michael for example, Locke's selfish actions haven't affected anyone else as nearly as badly.

And I never understood the need to blow up the Sub so he didn't have to leave; all he would have to do is NOT leave when everyone else got on the Sub, huh?

It's because he was scared that he could face the possibility of being forcibly put on the sub and being made to leave the island - Locke didn't want to take that risk, and wanted to do all he could to make sure that his new life continues. After all he's been through he just wanted to make absolute certain that he doesn't have to go back to it.

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Tricky. In many ways, I kind of think it's Locke, because he's been driven by his own needs (though he dresses them up as the demands of 'the island) since pretty much the beginning - and though often his needs are useful to other people (catching boar), other times they're quite the opposite (blowing up subs/communication ports, etc). But... Locke has more reason to be self-centred than Jack does. He's had this rubbish little life, been screwed over by his own parents, been belittled by his boss and longed quite understandably for a sense of higher purpose for years. So he's a lot easier to forgive. In some ways that's unfair on Jack - he's spent a long time being selfless, so this sudden turnaround is kind of galling to the extent that it seems to eradicate all that went before it. Having been a selfless person shouldn't technically mean you get more stick than someone who's been selfish for years. But... that's pretty much how I feel about it. And his reasons are *awful*... childish nonsense about having his heart broken by someone he wasn't even in a relationship with (and he was kidding himself if he thought she was all about him).

So I think Locke, on balance, is more (and more frequently) driven by selfishness than Jack. But he has a lot of more of my sympathy nonetheless.

Yes, Locke really is a more sympathetic character I think...yes Jack has had his fair share of bad times in his life, but at least he had caring parents, a wife and a job that he loved. Locke had none of those, and yet he still managed to keep on trying to make a better life for himself, not to mention helping others in his past simply because he wanted to. Locke may be more driven by selfishness, but I think that Jack commits it more deeply than Locke does...when Locke does something for himself, he often thinks of others as well, but with Jack he really is just thinking of himself which is what I find worse.

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by b-r-a-d

Locke is more selfish!

Jack wasnt being selfish when he done the deal to get of the Island, he felt he saved Kate and Sawyer from the Others and if they never came back for him they wouldnt of known so its notreally selfishness. When they did come back he did say he would send help for them! I think Jack getting off the Island would of been a good thing as there is more chance for teh rest to be saved!

Locke blowing up the submarine was probably the most selfish act ever done on the Island. By blowing it up he has ruined the chances of anyone being rescued. There are children on that island and even a baby who will have a much better chance of a survival in the real world. If Jack ever died and Aaron became ill they would just have to watch that baby die!

But Jack didn't do the deal to get off the Island with Kate or Sawyer in mind though, because if he had then why didn't he agree to do the op as soon as Kate had told him that Sawyer would die if he didn't? And why didn't Jack at least ask Ben if any of the other Losties could be released with him? The answer is that he was only thinking of himself at the time.

More selfish than Sawyer killing a living thing just because he wanted to demonstrate that he could? More selfish than Jack performing an operation only when he felt like it, instead of saving Ben's life and risking the lives of Kate and Sawyer? More selfish than Sun trying to poision Jin so that he couldn't go on the raft, but who ended up making Michael ill thereby jepodising the entire launch of the raft? There are lots of examples that are worse or equally as selfish as Locke's behaviour with the sub. Lol I fail to believe that about Aaron! Sun's skilled in natural medicines, so I bet she'd be able to give poor doomed Aaron a fighting chance if it came to it...