Is Locke a good man?

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew,February 08, 2007 08:01 pm

Yeah, he doesn't mean for him to get hurt, but he doesn't try to prevent it as such, and he doesn't exactly help matters. His rough handling of the boy and his lies to Jack, and then just leaving, it's simply not done. It didn't help Boone survive at all.

I agree, so don't have second thoughts. Although, I don't think everything Locke has done has been for his own gain, but I think that his mentality, (nearly typed everyman for himself) of everything happens for a reason just leads to him acting to help himself.

B what could he have done? His legs had just collapsed on him, what was he to do, climb a cliff and hold a ten ton plane steady? I dont think Locke can be blamed for boones death, if anyone can be blamed for it it is boone (or maybe bernard ). Locke was obviously traumatised by the event and i dont think he was thinking clearly when he conversed with jack and all that.

Also beachy, i understand that you are skeptical of Lockes attitutude on the island, and many would agree with you, but if you had miraculously regained control of your legs like locke (particularly after what had just happened in australia) I think you would have taken a similar view to him. I certainly would, a coincidence would just seem ridiculous, so i can certainly see where locke is coming from.

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by The_other_other,February 08, 2007 08:10 pm

B what could he have done? His legs had just collapsed on him, what was he to do, climb a cliff and hold a ten ton plane steady? I dont think Locke can be blamed for boones death, if anyone can be blamed for it it is boone (or maybe bernard ). Locke was obviously traumatised by the event and i dont think he was thinking clearly when he conversed with jack and all that.

Also beachy, i understand that you are skeptical of Lockes attitutude on the island, and many would agree with you, but if you had miraculously regained control of your legs like locke (particularly after what had just happened in australia) I think you would have taken a similar view to him. I certainly would, a coincidence would just seem ridiculous, so i can certainly see where locke is coming from.

ANYTHING! More than he did. A start would've been to not encourage Boone in the way he did. Boone sacrificed his life trying to save the entire island, but it was so sad. How is Boone to blame? I agree that Locke was affected by it, but at the same time I do think that he could've done something, anything....

I'm a cynic. Many would agree with me? I ain't so sure on that one. But I'm a girl of science, I don't believe in fate, or miracles, it's just not something I can understand. I can understand it too, but I just don't see how it works.

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew,February 08, 2007 08:19 pm

ANYTHING! More than he did. A start would've been to not encourage Boone in the way he did. Boone sacrificed his life trying to save the entire island, but it was so sad. How is Boone to blame? I agree that Locke was affected by it, but at the same time I do think that he could've done something, anything....

I'm a cynic. Many would agree with me? I ain't so sure on that one. But I'm a girl of science, I don't believe in fate, or miracles, it's just not something I can understand. I can understand it too, but I just don't see how it works.

He did B. He yelled at Boone loads of times to get out, but boone didnt, admittedly for admirable reasons, but still foolish ones. Also didnt you see him stumbling towards boone with his legs collapsing beneath him? There was definitely nothing he could do.

Trust me, a lot would. I understand you are a cynic etc, but im saying you wouldn't be if you experienced what Locke experienced (the miracle).

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by *SP*

I think Locke is a great man. He is good almost up to a fault. He looks for the good in everyone and every situation. I honestly don't think he has a bad bone in his body. Granted, he is easily led and his naivity or desire to follow his true path leaves him open to mistakes and Boone became a victim of Locke's circumstance...but I think he has learned from the experience and as we know felt incredibly guilty for Boone's death.

In terms of his actions being selfish...even the most altruistic deed can be beneficial to the person carrying it out. Striving to be the best person you can, especially when it involves helping or guiding someone who needs it (Charlie/Boone) is a great thing....but can bring a feeling of pride. I guess some people would say that is a selfish perspective...to feel better about yourself by helping someone...but only if that's the only contributing factor. I think most people gain personally from doing something good for others but that's not their primary objective. Enhancing his own feeling of worth is merely a by-product of Locke's actions, imo. I think he is motivated by a genuine desire to look out for other people.

DOL FOREVER*

Seconded to the very last word!

I think that Locke is definately a good man. He's far from perfect of course, but when you compare his actions and mentality to most of the other people on the island he outshines them easily imo. One of his major weaknesses is that - for the most part - he would bend over backwards for anyone that asked for his help, and as a result he leaves himself wide open for betrayal and manipulation. I think it's great that he's still willing to trust people and offer them unconditional help after all that he's been through on his pre-island life, and that he's not competely jaded towards everyone.

Compared to a lot of other characters he doesn't seem to have a lot of pre-meditated violence in him, and the worst we've seen from him was when he gave Charlie a few well deserved smacks. Personally I think it's a lot safer and justifiable for someone to lash out on the spur of the moment, then to think about and carefully plan to cause someone harm, ala Jack, Sayid, Sawyer, Ana, Charlie.... I know he's guilty of Henry's torture by omission and although I can see why he did it I don't agree with it, but when it comes to inflicting violence himself he doesn't think about using his fists or a gun first of all.

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Boone, man, do not get me started on Locke and Boone. Yes, Locke helped Boone start out on his own, but he led boone on a wild goose chase, turned him away from his sister, caused Boone to act out of his original sweet character....attacking Mike. And then, finally, when Boone was starting to see through Locke's facade, the man pushed Boone to help him, talked more and more about the hatch and saving their fellow survivors, and this hero complex ultimately led to Boone's death.

I would hardly say that Locke turned Boone away from Shannon - Locke put Boone in a situation where he ultimately felt what it was like to loose Shannon, and upon asking what that felt like Boone replied 'I felt relieved.' Boone loved Shannon yes, but wanted to break away from her, and Locke gave him the opportunity to do so. I can't remember Locke ever forcing Boone not to spend time with Shannon, or poisoning his mind against her...what Boone did and felt towards Shannon was of his own free will. And Boone had never had a completely sweet character beforehand...remember when he attacked Brian? (The guy he went to resuce Shannon from). Boone wanted to protect Shannon from him, like he wanted to protect Locke from Mike. Again this was an action Boone made out of his own free will - Locke never asked him to defend him.

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by The_other_other,February 08, 2007 08:25 pm

He did B. He yelled at Boone loads of times to get out, but boone didnt, admittedly for admirable reasons, but still foolish ones. Also didnt you see him stumbling towards boone with his legs collapsing beneath him? There was definitely nothing he could do.

Trust me, a lot would. I understand you are a cynic etc, but im saying you wouldn't be if you experienced what Locke experienced (the miracle).

I warned you not to get me started! And he whispered :P . Boone was trying to save the day, and after seeing Locke doing similar things so many times, I think Boone just wanted to prove he could be the hero too. Yes, yes I did, and I admit he pushed through the pain, but I do think he could've helped eased Boone's suffering by informing Jack of everything.

It doesn't feel that way. Thank you, and how can you know that for sure?

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew,February 08, 2007 08:38 pm

I warned you not to get me started! And he whispered :P . Boone was trying to save the day, and after seeing Locke doing similar things so many times, I think Boone just wanted to prove he could be the hero too. Yes, yes I did, and I admit he pushed through the pain, but I do think he could've helped eased Boone's suffering by informing Jack of everything.

It doesn't feel that way. Thank you, and how can you know that for sure?

too late now, oh well :P . B, if that was locke whispering then the guy can probably beat king kong in a shouting contest . Maybe, but how do you know that? And even so so what :P Boone is a grown man and should have taken care of himself, it is hardly Lockes fault that boone mimicked him. I repeat, what would you have done in lockes position? Jack was in his 'hero mode' im afraid, he was going to try anything to save boone no matter what, although i do agree that Locke should have stayed and explained himself, like i said in the start of the thread he is not perfect at all.

Sorry beachy , that was too direct, i dont know if you would or not, but i suspect it would change you. Its like what that australian guy said to sawyer: 'A man only finds out who he really is when he holds that gun' i.e: We dont truly know how we would react to something like that

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior,February 08, 2007 08:28 pm

I would hardly say that Locke turned Boone away from Shannon - Locke put Boone in a situation where he ultimately felt what it was like to loose Shannon, and upon asking what that felt like Boone replied 'I felt relieved.' Boone loved Shannon yes, but wanted to break away from her, and Locke gave him the opportunity to do so. I can't remember Locke ever forcing Boone not to spend time with Shannon, or poisoning his mind against her...what Boone did and felt towards Shannon was of his own free will. And Boone had never had a completely sweet character beforehand...remember when he attacked Brian? (The guy he went to resuce Shannon from). Boone wanted to protect Shannon from him, like he wanted to protect Locke from Mike. Again this was an action Boone made out of his own free will - Locke never asked him to defend him.

I see where you're coming from, I really do, but I just think that Locke pushed Boone too hard, and made him confront inner emotions. Emotions that he was not ready to confront. And when Boone said that I do not believe it's coz he wanted rid of his sister, but because he was relieved that he didn't have to take care of her anymore, coz that's something that always played heavily on his mind. He loved his sister and I do believe that on some level Locke caused him to forget some of that love.

I'm not suggesting that, but it's just that I feel Locke helped implant those ideas in Boone's mind, and that led to the separation between the siblings. Yes, but he did that to protect his sister, he loved her and cared about her...everything he did was coz he loved Shannon so much. I know Boone chose to attack Mike, but it was because he came so obsessed with Locke that it happened.

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew,February 08, 2007 09:54 pm

I see where you're coming from, I really do, but I just think that Locke pushed Boone too hard, and made him confront inner emotions. Emotions that he was not ready to confront. And when Boone said that I do not believe it's coz he wanted rid of his sister, but because he was relieved that he didn't have to take care of her anymore, coz that's something that always played heavily on his mind. He loved his sister and I do believe that on some level Locke caused him to forget some of that love.

I'm not suggesting that, but it's just that I feel Locke helped implant those ideas in Boone's mind, and that led to the separation between the siblings. Yes, but he did that to protect his sister, he loved her and cared about her...everything he did was coz he loved Shannon so much. I know Boone chose to attack Mike, but it was because he came so obsessed with Locke that it happened.

Yeah I can see how Locke's treatment of Boone in getting him to confront his Shannon issues can be viewed as being too hard and too fast, but sometimes a person needs a short sharp shock instead of a long drawn out process, and Locke (correctly imo) judged that Boone needed the former. I don't think that Boone would have broken away from Shannon's influence by himself any time soon, epsecially after crash landing on the island, and I think that after discovering her relationship with Sayid, he would have become even more involved with her, and this would have eaten him up from the inside. Boone wanted to be free from Shannon's influence - he wanted to be with her on his own terms instead of hers - and Locke was able to sense this and offered him a solution, which Boone was grateful for.
I agree with you that Boone didn't want total rid of Shannon - he just wanted to be rid of being so responsible for her, and having her dominate his life and influence almost all of his thoughts and actions. But I don't agree that Locke caused Boone to forget some of his love for Shannon - if Boone did exhibit less emotions towards Shannon, than that was of his own accord. Locke's good, but he's not powerful enough to dictate to people what they should feel about others! He just offers them an alternative in how to feel, think and act, and it's up to them if they take it or not, and Boone - although he didn't agree to being drugged and tied up - was grateful for its end results.

Personally I think that Boone already had those idas in his head, and all Locke did was help Boone to release them. I agree that Boone did that because he cared for Shannon, but could it not also be seen that Boone attacked Mike because he cared for Locke as well? If it's going to be argued that he attacked Mike because he became obsessed with Locke (I personally don't think he went that far), then I would argue that the same word could (and possibly should) be used for Shannon: Boone not only attacked Brian for Shannon, but repeatedly trailed after her to bail her out of trouble...when she called he came running. I think that Boone did all that because he truly loved and cared for Shannon, but I also think that he was more obsessed with her than he was over Locke.

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior,February 08, 2007 09:21 pm

Yeah I can see how Locke's treatment of Boone in getting him to confront his Shannon issues can be viewed as being too hard and too fast, but sometimes a person needs a short sharp shock instead of a long drawn out process, and Locke (correctly imo) judged that Boone needed the former. I don't think that Boone would have broken away from Shannon's influence by himself any time soon, epsecially after crash landing on the island, and I think that after discovering her relationship with Sayid, he would have become even more involved with her, and this would have eaten him up from the inside. Boone wanted to be free from Shannon's influence - he wanted to be with her on his own terms instead of hers - and Locke was able to sense this and offered him a solution, which Boone was grateful for.
I agree with you that Boone didn't want total rid of Shannon - he just wanted to be rid of being so responsible for her, and having her dominate his life and influence almost all of his thoughts and actions. But I don't agree that Locke caused Boone to forget some of his love for Shannon - if Boone did exhibit less emotions towards Shannon, than that was of his own accord. Locke's good, but he's not powerful enough to dictate to people what they should feel about others! He just offers them an alternative in how to feel, think and act, and it's up to them if they take it or not, and Boone - although he didn't agree to being drugged and tied up - was grateful for its end results.

Personally I think that Boone already had those idas in his head, and all Locke did was help Boone to release them. I agree that Boone did that because he cared for Shannon, but could it not also be seen that Boone attacked Mike because he cared for Locke as well? If it's going to be argued that he attacked Mike because he became obsessed with Locke (I personally don't think he went that far), then I would argue that the same word could (and possibly should) be used for Shannon: Boone not only attacked Brian for Shannon, but repeatedly trailed after her to bail her out of trouble...when she called he came running. I think that Boone did all that because he truly loved and cared for Shannon, but I also think that he was more obsessed with her than he was over Locke.

But it shocked Boone too much, he changed too quickly and became like A mini-Locke. Locke should've seen that Boone wasn't ready for this, that he needed a slightly slower pace, and perhaps more talking about his issues rather than just some wacky paste. That's true, Boone would've stayed with Shannon, but they're family, I don't see anything entirely wrong with that. Granted, it was slightly over the top, but he was her big brother, what big brother wouldn't do anything to protect his baby sister? not one I'd want to know. Yes, Boone was grateful, but I still see this "breaking free" as the thing that led to his death.
Agreed, Boone wanted to be his own person, and I also think he wanted to see Shannon make a go of things on her own also. Hmmm, but it was Locke that sparked the chain of events in Boone's mind, the idea that he could live without her, and so his love stopped. Locke started this. The tying up of Boone was disgraceful in my opinion, it was animalistic and Boone was given no choice. He may have been grateful but he didn't get a chance to look at the other option. He was forced into this one.

Maybe. Boone did everything that he did coz he cared for Shannon, and yes, he cared for Locke, but eventually his care for Locke made him lose some of his care for his sister. Boone followed Locke around like a lap dog, that's obsession in my opinion. Boone was a sweetheart, and his love for Shannon was touching (albeit creepy at times) and yes, he was obsessed with her. But I don't think it could be helped. I just wish he'd broke away from Locke earlier, become his own person earlier, and maybe, just maybe he wouldn't have died.

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew,February 08, 2007 10:35 pm

But it shocked Boone too much, he changed too quickly and became like A mini-Locke. Locke should've seen that Boone wasn't ready for this, that he needed a slightly slower pace, and perhaps more talking about his issues rather than just some wacky paste. That's true, Boone would've stayed with Shannon, but they're family, I don't see anything entirely wrong with that. Granted, it was slightly over the top, but he was her big brother, what big brother wouldn't do anything to protect his baby sister? not one I'd want to know. Yes, Boone was grateful, but I still see this "breaking free" as the thing that led to his death.
Agreed, Boone wanted to be his own person, and I also think he wanted to see Shannon make a go of things on her own also. Hmmm, but it was Locke that sparked the chain of events in Boone's mind, the idea that he could live without her, and so his love stopped. Locke started this. The tying up of Boone was disgraceful in my opinion, it was animalistic and Boone was given no choice. He may have been grateful but he didn't get a chance to look at the other option. He was forced into this one.

Maybe. Boone did everything that he did coz he cared for Shannon, and yes, he cared for Locke, but eventually his care for Locke made him lose some of his care for his sister. Boone followed Locke around like a lap dog, that's obsession in my opinion. Boone was a sweetheart, and his love for Shannon was touching (albeit creepy at times) and yes, he was obsessed with her. But I don't think it could be helped. I just wish he'd broke away from Locke earlier, become his own person earlier, and maybe, just maybe he wouldn't have died.

You say that Boone became like a Mini Locke as if it's a bad thing...

But how do we know that what Boone really needed was a slower pace to help him resolve his issues? Locke believed that Boone was ready and was strong enough to handle a wacky paste vision, and in Locke's view doing that was a very strong dose of help from him...Locke's not the most socially comfortable or proficient person, and although his methods may be unorthodox he believes that they are right and proper, and carry no malicious intent with them.
I don't really see Boone's 'breaking free' as being the cause of his death, since Boone had the free will to refuse Locke's request to climb the plane in the first place, and he also had the sense to listen to Locke screaming at him to get down from the plane but Boone, bless him, was too busy having a good yak on the radio. As we've seen from the Pilot, Boone just wants to help and prove that he's useful, and so that's a couple of important reasons why went up in the plane to begin with I think.

OK so if it's being argued that Locke sparked the chain of ideas in Boone's head, that doesn't mean that Locke created them: if he did ignite them, then he must have had something to ignite in the first place. Yeah I agree that it does seem to be pretty bad form to drug someone and tie them up, but from Locke's point of view what he was doing was for the best: he was simply helping Boone in the most efficient way he knew, which is not the most understandable or comfortable of methods. Yes it was a harsh method of helping Boone, but the important thing was that there was a good mentality behind it: Locke didn't do it just because he had nothing else better to do for the rest of the day.

If Boone's affections for Locke did, in any way, cause him to feel less intense emotions towards Shannon, then I think that was of Boone's own choosing - he never stopped 'caring' for Shannon imo; he only let go of the crushing feelings of responsibility he felt towards her...feelings he wanted to let go of.
If Boone had of broken away from Locke earlier, then I don't think he ever would have become his own person. Well at least not any time soon, that's for sure. But Locke was the only person who was willing to give Boone the freedom to prove himself, and the chance to take on responsibilities that others (like Jack) were reluctant to give him. Without Locke Boone wouldn't have flourished and come into his own...wouldn't have learnt all that he did, nor had his mind opened or been able to confront his demons with Shannon.