If James Conned You...

[Blloydy]

I wouldn't murder him. Not because it's Sawyer, because I couldn't murder anyone, no matter what the circumstances.

I don't think that Sawyer was right to murder Cooper. Murder is wrong, but I don't blame him for doing it (just to make this clear: I'm not saying that murder is right, and I'm not saying I don't blame him because he's my favorite - I'm not supporting it.)

But we saw what he did to two people's lives, he ruined both Sawyer's and Locke's. Cooper provoked it, he acted as if he wasn't human, he didn't care about anyone else besides himself.

And maybe, the people who are supporting Sawyer are only doing it because they feel they have to, because whenever he does on little thing wrong he gets jumped on and no one is allowed to forget it. It's the same with Jack. I don't beleive anyone on here would support murder.

[James]

Totally disagree. How was he unrealistic, James? There are many people in this world just like him..i couldnt disagree more with what you've just said. And even if he were unrealistic, it is besides the point because the fact of the matter is that Sawyer killed him, regardless of whether he was unrealistic or not

Unrealistic was probably the wrong word to use as there may be people like Cooper in real life, but in terms of what we have seen he has never done anything worthy of sympathy and we have never seen any reason for why he is so careless towards people.

So from what we know about Cooper we have no reason to feel anything but dislike towards him.

Sawyer was still wrong to murder him but I can understand why he did it so that is why I have not condemned him for it. If he had say murdered someone like Claire who had not done anything to him then I would definetly lose all support for Sawyer.

[L-BSE*84]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

*Applauds Lis*

Amazing post.

thanks B i made lots of grammatical and spelling errors, but i was in a rush!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by L-BSE*84

roco-

dont get me wrong, i understand where you are going with this, and i do acknowledge what you are saying- i just dont think its fair to use such examples.

you are saying why and how i am making such distinctions between sawyers case and rape/abuse. its quite simple really. sawyers murder of cooper was portrayed in such a way that we can understand and sympathise with why he did it.

how will a fictional show ever be able to make us the auidence feel sympathetic for a man/woman who rapes or abuses someone? the point is, the act that sawyer committed CANNOT be compared to say, if sawyer were to rape/abuse someone. can you not see that? i am positively sure that if sawyer did such a thing, NO ONE would be supporting him.

the reason people are sympathising with him is because cooper inadvertently contributed to his life of misery. cooper is an evil man- sawyer didnt go and kill some innocent man. i believe, that if cooper hadnt torn that letter sawyer wouldve thought twice about killing him. its not like sawyer just went and 'executed' someone- he was emoitionally driven. no, that doesnt make it ok by any means but given the context of sawyers, locke and coopers background, it makes it understandable if people were to sympathise with him. no one is going to be crying for the man who ruined two peoples lives and was just so evil.

i really dont know how else i can possibly make you see my point of view. to me it makes some sense why sawyer is getting sympathy.
you cant just say if you condone fictional criminal act A, you condone fictional criminal act B, it really doesnt work like that- well not for me.

if by some maracullous reason, we see a fictional show/film trying to make us sympathise with a child abuser/rapist (maybe they have, i dont recall seeing any such fictional show though..) then i very much doubt i would feel the same way. i guess for me, this 'drawring the line' isnt black and white- but i definitly see the two examples you have identified as being WORSE then murder, BUT these two examples, arent comparable or on the same level as what sawyer did.

roco, i dont really care about 'losing face' im not that sort of person who wont admit they are wrong, especially in this context. Hardly any of my opinions are clad in stone- im too young to be 'stuck in my ways.'
You say you respect me, and you know how much i respect you, but this is going to be an instance, when we are not in agreement- may be because i dont see things as being as black and white as you do, or maybe because of some other reason. If you think my morals or whatever are wrongly placed, than thats your opinion. if we could actually have a face to face long talk, then maybe we could better undertstand each other...i dunno dude.

im not intentionally or unintentionally overlooking what you are saying, because im not overlooking what you're saying- i simply think that each case has its own merit. when we watch tv shows/films, most of us are taken into a different world- where sometimes we would excuse certain things, when in reality we wouldnt. and in other cases, we wouldnt excuse what we see, because they are unexcusable.

have you seen Batman Begins? in an early scene when Bruce Wayne is being trained by the leauge of shadows and he becomes a really good combater, they decide to test his loyalty. they bring about, a criminal, who has stolen food for his family. the league see this as a crime, and want him to be executed. they want wayne to execute him, to prove that he too wants justice to prevail. but bruce refuses and says, that this 'criminal' deserves a fair trial and he will not execute a man. two minutes later, wayne has pretty much killed the whole of the league of shadows. i dont know about you, but i didnt even spot this blatent irony/hypocracy until someone else mentioned it to me. even after this, i still want batman to kick ass.

the point im trying to make is, in reality i would not be supporting a man who does something like this...it is to an extent, mindless killing. but in batman, i love batman.

if batman were to rape or abuse someone, no one (unless you are a sick individual) would be egging batman on.

you said - So basically you're saying that because people are biased towards him they are naturally going to support/condone murder? Sorry, but i like to think better of humanity than that.id like to think that people know when enough was enough..id like to think that people are able to draw the line and admit to when their faves are just wrong. I one should expect people to be biased then..thats basically what you're saying?

i say- yea thats pretty much it. if say, jack did what sawyer did, i wouldnt condone it, just like i dont condone what sawyer did, but thats me.

you said- But yet you constantly say thats it's a fictional show and so we shouldnt be too harsh on those who support the execution of Cooper..

i say- yes. again, for the 'we shouldnt be too harsh on those...' but i dont thinkÂ*Â*im being lenient- but if thats what you think, then thats what you think.

Sorry but i think your view on execution is extremly skewed and quite a dangerous outlook actually..

You're saying that child abuse and r*pe are worse than execution..personally i dont know how anyone can make such a distinction and claim one to be worse than the others. Arent they all as bad as each other?

I think that you dont quite see the corruption in your statement about not being too harsh on those who supported the execution because it's only a fictional show. I still put it to you that if people were supporting a fictional r*pe, would you still excuse it on the grounds of it being fictional? It's irrelevant whether this has or has not happened, im saying 'if' it were to happen and 'if' people were to support it, your statement about 'Lost being a fictional show' would severly corrupt your previous leniency on Coopers execution.

You cant excuse execution and those who support it on the grounds that its a 'fictional portrayal' and yet expect that r*pe and child abuse should not also be treated with the same leniency..because there would be sick people out there who would apply your own statement/stance to such a portrayal. You see, it's all relative. If it's ok for you to excuse the fictional portrayal of execution, then why should any other fictional portrayal be any different? Where do you draw the line? You simply cant draw the line when you have the outlook that you have. You cant say that fictional r*pe is worse than fictional murder because both are 'fictional' and there will be sicko's out there who would therefore have the right to support a fictional r*pe because of the outlook you have applied to fictional murder.

I also dont see how you can claim execution to be ok to support on the grounds that Cooper is an 'evil man'? What if a person who is fictionally r*ped is an evil person? Does that then make it ok to support? You see, whilst i appreciate the effort you have gone to in this debate, i really dont think it has much logic except the fact that you synmpathise with Sawyer and so want to protect him/yourself from supporting his crime.

As for your batman begins analogy..big difference Lis..When he was told to kill that man, an attempt wasnt made on his (Batmans) life, he wouldnt kill the man because he had morals..he later fought the shadows because his life was under threat. When was Sawyers life under threat?

Also i dont see how i see things black or white when im not the one who thinks that the Others are evil and all that stuff..im always the one promoting open-mindedness and advocating the bigger picture. This Sawyer debate im arguing on the basis of you saying it's a fictional show and therefore we shouldnt be too hard on those who supprt the execution - i think you fail to see that you could apply the 'fictional programme' excuse to any other crime and it would excuse it..which basically makes for a corrupted system whereby people can support a crime and perhaps harbour real dangerous mindsets and yet hide behind the veil of 'oh it's fictional'. That is very scarey..those people who support the execution are potentially dangerous in their views imo. To explicity support/revel in an execution be it fictional or not says alot about a person. You know, there are those who would support/revel in fictional child abuse..would you be so quick to excuse those sick people? I imgaine/hope that you wouldnt be so lenient..but then those people could rightly argue that by your very own stance, Lis, you would have to let them off the hook, because 'it's only a tv show'

You see, this is why your stance is a very dangerous one..perhaps more dangerous than the people who explicity support Coopers execution..it takes people to excuse crimes to make them excusable.

Personally i dont care for Cooper..but to excuse his murder on the grounds of it being a fictional show is something i would never do..for if i did (which i dont) it would make such a stance corrupt when a crime was committed that i didnt agree with as i would have no basis to condem this crime.

I hope you see what im saying but i fear that we will have to agree to disagree

[Kennindra47]

I wouldn't be able to physically kill a person like Sawyer did ... at least I don't think I would. You never know.
I seriously would have no problem doing what Locke did though. (Locking Cooper in a room with a guy that would murder him.) Especially if he had caused the death of my parents.

As for the Lis v KoR argument ... you have brought child abuse and r*pe into the equation. Child abuse should not come into this at all because you could never in a million years justify it. You could justify Cooper's murder because he has done some really evil things. But there is never going to be a situation where a child has done something evil enough to be murdered or abused. Children are innocent.
As for r*pe, a direct comparison still cannot be made. When you think about r*pe, you usually imagine the victim being female ... which the vast majority of people would object to. However, on Desperate Housewives for example, Orson's ex-wife r*ped him and nobody objected in the slightest. All I'm saying is ... would anybody seriously object as much if Cooper was r*ped than if the same thing happened to Sun or Claire or Shannon or Kate? Hence, a direct comparison really cannot be made.

[x_____simran*]

You're all so moral!
...Don't hate me but .. I'd probably kill him, if I got the chance.
I just wouldn't handle all the consequences well.

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by x_____simran*

You're all so moral!
...Don't hate me but .. I'd probably kill him, if I got the chance.
I just wouldn't handle all the consequences well.

In the heat of the moment.. i honestly doubt that anyone would do differently. But then with our moral highground and hindsight.. well this is what you get.

Personally i dont really blame Sawyer for killing Cooper. Never have done, never will.

[Orson]

I'd say no I wouldn't kill him as I believe revenge solves nothingand only create more misery and pain. Plus in all revenge tradgies the revenger has to die because that have killed.