Why Throwing Up doesnt mean SQUAT

[D-Roc]

Nothing has shocked me more in the aftermath of 'The Brig', than the reaction of some observers - Not even the callous wayÂ*Â*in which Sawyer wrapped the rusty chain arround Coopers neck shocked me as much as some of the apparent excuses which have been flooding in.

I often read of Sawyer (and lostie fans in general) proclaiming their heroes to be the "good guys" and all that jazz..thats despite numerous executions, murders and attacks on lone women.

Now when Ford executed..yes EXECUTED Cooper I felt sure that people would see sense and realise that somethings, though understandable, dont deserve excusing. I worry about the morality of the people who claim that Cooper deserved to be executed by Ford - are these people aware that prior to this episode they were slamming Locke for 'killing Mikhail' and Ben for things which they dont yet understand? Are these people are aware of the context of what theyre saying?

Cooper did not derserve to die..not by Sawyers hands at least. Yes, he had it coming because Karma often catches up with people (as im sure Sawyer will soon find out), but no man has the right to take another mans life and have people claim that it was 'deserved'. Coopers crime against Sawyer was to con his mother..regardless of how this shaped Sawyers life, it doesnt give him the right to kill thta man for an unintentional chain of events that took place. I dont understand the mindsets of those who claim that justice was done - i would ask those people to seriously ponder this:

Cassidy comes to the island and murders Sawyer (James Ford) for the con that he ran on her. She takes a rusty chain and stagulates the man. Now..Sawyer fans/sympathisers...what would you say to that? Technically by your own support of Fords murder of Cooper, you would have no right to blame Cassidy if she were to do that, because it is precisely what Cooper did to Mary (Fords mom).

You see..there is no justification for what Sawyer did. How can you claim to be people with civilised norms when you support the murder of a man? You either have to admit to being savages or concede that your bias is blinding your logic (imo).

So what is it..are you a savage like Sawyer..or are you merely biased. Im hoping and thinking that it is only bias because id like to think that none of us a savages..but then when i see people supporting murder it makes me wonder..even more so when these same people were previously slamming Locke and Ben for there actions..

Like i said, i hope it's bias. Sawyer has hit the depths of savagery and it's hard to take in..i know..well i dont know because my faves are more decent but you know what im saying.

Also, on to my main point (though this will be shorter, ironically). Ive seen people claim that because Ford threw up, it shows that he's not a cold hearted murderer or whatever. I mean, are you being serious? I acknowledge that that event was put in there for a reason, but regardless of him throwing up it doesnt make him not a murderer or a callous one at that, because he has now killed 3 people that we know about, in the space of 91 days. I mean how much blood does one need on his hands before the well runs dry? How many notches does one need on his bedpost before the bedpost breaks? How many excuses are you going to ply us with before we all realise it's nothing more than propaganda and blatent bias?

I propose an end to the Sawyer excuses..he threw up..boo-hoo, im sure several murderers throw up after racking up their first 3 victims.

And for those who are constsantly trying to blame Locke and Ben ahead of Sawyer..your argument reeks of bias and desperation. Personally i would respect such arguments much more if Sawyers crime was attended to in detail and fairness before even a mention of Ben or Locke is given.

But i wont be too harsh on Sawyer supporters, you do know he's going to die dont you, i dont think Smokes likes island-killers..especially after all the chances he's had.

[Murgatroyd]

To whom are you talking?

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

To whom are you talking?

sawyer supporters and lostie lovers

edit: KoR dont take this comment too harshly its just not all of us who defend sawyer or the losties are biased, its just our opinions man. I support the losties no more than the others, and i am certainly no sawyer fan

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

To whom are you talking?

Rhetorical..though lostie-lovers are welcome to attempt to counter some of the arguments provided..if they can.

And of course all are welcome to give their varying views..it's a forum

Though it would be nice to see the Sawyer issue tackled without bringing Locke and Ben into the main buckle of debate:P

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by The_other_other

sawyer supporters and lostie lovers

edit: KoR dont take this comment too harshly its just not all of us who defend sawyer or the losties are biased, its just our opinions man. I support the losties no more than the others, and i am certainly no sawyer fan

But of course..though many are and therefore they and anyone else is welcome to give their views. It's a forum afterall. Expression backed up with reason/logic is often a good thing

[Murgatroyd]

Locke and Ben's roles in what happened are interesting and worthy of debate, and what Sawyer did wouldn't have happened without their intervention. But as to the isolated specifics of what Sawyer did... I think you've already heard my opinions. My pity for his sufferings was renewed and nothing about Cooper engendered any sympathy for him, but nothing, in my view, truly excuses what Sawyer did, and I wish for his own sake that he'd been able to refuse. As to his throwing up, it wasn't an insignificant detail. To me it symbolised that he was profoundly revolted by what he'd just did. That's not masses of use after the event, of course, but it's more regret than some Lost characters have ever shown.

[Mrs Ferg]

I agree Murg, I have said that the killing of cooper was wrong and unlawful, thus I have not condoned it in any way. In my opinion Sawyer was wrong to murder Cooper but he was assisted by Locke; so in my opinion Locke must carry some of the blame. That is why in the "Trial of Sawyer thread" I stated that although I believe Sawyer to be guility of murder, he may have the defence of provocation to amend the charge to manslaughter.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Locke and Ben's roles in what happened are interesting and worthy of debate, and what Sawyer did wouldn't have happened without their intervention.

Well, one could argue that Ana-Lucias death wouldnt have happened if it wasnt for Sawyer..see it's all relative Murg. You should only really blame the culprit..not the players. I suppose people just make excuses for Sawyer regardless of the contradictions with his past actions (general comment, not necessarily aimed at you)

But as to the isolated specifics of what Sawyer did... I think you've already heard my opinions. My pity for his sufferings was renewed and nothing about Cooper engendered any sympathy for him, but nothing, in my view, truly excuses what Sawyer did, and I wish for his own sake that he'd been able to refuse. As to his throwing up, it wasn't an insignificant detail. To me it symbolised that he was profoundly revolted by what he'd just did. That's not masses of use after the event, of course, but it's more regret than some Lost characters have ever shown.

Well im glad you dont wish to excuse Ford, though i often perceive your views as doing otherwise (hey, just being honest here). But i think you're wrong about the throwing up business..if Hitler threw up after the first 3 folks that he murdered would you be saying the same thing, Murg?

And who says it's because he regretted what he did? I think you're being a mite hopeful there Murg - i think his throwing up was because he'd finally managed to do something that he'd been hoping to do most of his life. Afterall, people often throw up after winning Gold at the Olympics..you think that represents their regret?

Sorry Murg, respect your views, but think you're wrong on this

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Well, one could argue that Ana-Lucias death wouldnt have happened if it wasnt for Sawyer..see it's all relative Murg. You should only really blame the culprit..not the players. I suppose people just make excuses for Sawyer regardless of the contradictions with his past actions (general comment, not necessarily aimed at you)

In which case, why *did* you make a thing of Sawyer's role in Ana Lucia's death? Surely you should blame Michael and Michael alone going by those rules.

Anyway, I disagree. Of course those who take the final actions need to take their share of the culpability for that, but I also think that everyone needs to take proportionate blame for those things for which they are responsible. If you put 100% of the blame on the last person in the line, that's to excuse every abusive and contributory gesture that went into the event in question. Every battered wife who killed her husband would take 100% of the blame for that action, exonerating her abuser. Mr Paik's role in brutalising Jin would be brushed over: Jin's subsequent treatment of Sun would become entirely his fault. Everyone who hired a hitman would be in the clear because it's ultimately the hitman's decision as to whether or not he pulls the trigger. Essentially, that all looks very wrong to me.

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Well im glad you dont wish to excuse Ford, though i often perceive your views as doing otherwise (hey, just being honest here). But i think you're wrong about the throwing up business..if Hitler threw up after the first 3 folks that he murdered would you be saying the same thing, Murg?

D'you really think he did? I'd say that anyone's throwing up after committing a dreadful deed is presumably indicative of something, but as I said above, it makes no real difference: it doesn't make the deed any less dreadful and it's of no significance at all if the deed is subsequently repeated because obviously then it can't have been indicative of true regret. We don't yet know how true Sawyer's apparent regret will prove to be. And I sincerely don't know how you can keep interpreting my repeatedly saying Sawyer was wrong as excusing him.

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

And who says it's because he regretted what he did? I think you're being a mite hopeful there Murg - i think his throwing up was because he'd finally managed to do something that he'd been hoping to do most of his life. Afterall, people often throw up after winning Gold at the Olympics..you think that represents their regret?

I don't 'hope' anything. That's just how I read the event. It didn't look like a self-congratulatory bout of vomiting to me, that's all.

[Mrs Ferg]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

i think his throwing up was because he'd finally managed to do something that he'd been hoping to do most of his life. Afterall, people often throw up after winning Gold at the Olympics..you think that represents their regret?

Hmm, Roc, I am inclined to disagree with you on this point. There are many reasons why people are sick; I would submit that when Olympic runners or marathon runners etc are sick its becuase they have pushed their body to the limit; (or have just eaten a curry the night before a 5 mile run cough cough) ........ anyway I think it could be reasonably argued that a runner throwing up in the way you described and Sawyer being sick were for different emotional reasons; I am not condoning what sawyer did but I do think his own actions sickened him.

[esn]

Ok just to remind everyone, that I am anti Sawyer after what he did and I know that ultimatley, the buck stops with him. Ben and Locke both had thier parts to play had I have said in many a post and hold a degree of responsablity which is large to look at but is tiny in comparison to Sawyers (if that makes any sense)

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

And for those who are constsantly trying to blame Locke and Ben ahead of Sawyer..your argument reeks of bias and desperation. Personally i would respect such arguments much more if Sawyers crime was attended to in detail and fairness before even a mention of Ben or Locke is given.

Now was that a dig at me and their 'blood on thier hands' thread? I dont think it was but I would like to make some stuff clear none the less. That was my intial reaction to the episdode and to what I had just seen, but my argument still stands, and I point out that ultimately, Saywer was to blame. I also would like to point out that I have no idea really why I put my assessment of thier guilt before I did mine of Sawyers first, just the way my inital thoughts manifested themselves into that piece.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Well, one could argue that Ana-Lucias death wouldnt have happened if it wasnt for Sawyer..see it's all relative Murg. You should only really blame the culprit..not the players. I suppose people just make excuses for Sawyer regardless of the contradictions with his past actions (general comment, not necessarily aimed at you)

lol, I remember using this example: Portion blaming of Sawyer for Ana's death is like blaming a shop owner for having a knife stolen, then the person who stole the knife being killed by said knife by someone totally unrelated to the shop owner (Sawyer is the shop owner by the way). It's really quite mad to be honest.

And why is Ana being brought up, I thought we weren't *allowed* to bring other characters into debate when discussing a different character? Oh and Sawyer was wrong to kill Cooper - murder is wrong. I don't know who you're trying to convince, I presume everyone knows murder is wrong - it doesn't stop them sympathising with Sawyer for what has happened to him though.

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Cooper did not derserve to die..not by Sawyers hands at least. Yes, he had it coming because Karma often catches up with people (as im sure Sawyer will soon find out), but no man has the right to take another mans life and have people claim that it was 'deserved'. Coopers crime against Sawyer was to con his mother..regardless of how this shaped Sawyers life, it doesnt give him the right to kill thta man for an unintentional chain of events that took place. I dont understand the mindsets of those who claim that justice was done - i would ask those people to seriously ponder this:

Cassidy comes to the island and murders Sawyer (James Ford) for the con that he ran on her. She takes a rusty chain and stagulates the man. Now..Sawyer fans/sympathisers...what would you say to that? Technically by your own support of Fords murder of Cooper, you would have no right to blame Cassidy if she were to do that, because it is precisely what Cooper did to Mary (Fords mom).

I take your point that from our perspective sawyer had no right or cause to murder cooper, but the circumstances and mindset his was in etc would probably allow him to claim insanity in the courts, people have certainly done that for less.

Ahh but cooper didnt leave mary any money, and also ,ary wasnt the one who took revenge. It was sawyer. So if you rephrased what you said and wrote mary was killed by her husband who then killed himself, and their child grew up, tracked sawyer down and used the old chain then you would have an argument, but your current one involves two different situations.

Id like to make something clear, i feel like i was slightly hasty in defending the murder of cooper, it wasnt so much me defending murder but me being happy the a**hole was dead lol, so no i dont support sawyers murder, but i see it is understandable. I wouldnt send sawyer down for too long if i was a judge

[Verix]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Though it would be nice to see the Sawyer issue tackled without bringing Locke and Ben into the main buckle of debate:P

Why? Whenever you're listing Sawyer's crimes you always accuse him of playing his part in Sun's fake kidnapping, why doesn't the same apply here?

Oh well.

I believe it was me who brought up the being sick point, but only because i was trying to show that there is evidence to suggest that Sawyer is remorsefu of what he has done. Frankly i don't think we'll know till later on whether he is truly remourceful. I'd also suggest (as MR Furg has done) that your marathon runner analogy is a bit off as that is probably more of a physical reaction to running over 20 miles.

Just to clarfy here, i don't condone murder, ever, well i've certainly not seen or heard of an occurnace where a different/better way of going about things wasn't available. I am completly against Sawyer killing Cooper, but i do hold a degree of sympathy for him because had Locke not brought him to the black rock he never would have committed the act. Of course this isn't an excuse merely my feelings on the situation.