Why Throwing Up doesnt mean SQUAT

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

I've never hated a thread so much in my life.

And you know what makes me laugh the most? That you, KoR, wrote in your episode review that you weren't gonna revel in Sawyer's trip to the dark side.

Yeah right.

b please dont get upset, a lot of stuff which has been said may upset you but dont forget its only people's opinions, im sure KoR isnt deliberately trying to antagonise you

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by The_other_other

b please dont get upset, a lot of stuff which has been said may upset you but dont forget its only people's opinions, im sure KoR isnt deliberately trying to antagonise you

Thanks hun. But I'm not having a particularly good day as it is, and this ain't helping. I just feel like everyone is focusing on the murder by itself - which yes, was wrong but understandable. There were so many other factors in that episode, not just that.

I know he's not but I just don't think this thread is very jovial.

[TheDharmaShark]

I think we get the point now KoR.

[The Wizard]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Cassidy comes to the island and murders Sawyer (James Ford) for the con that he ran on her. She takes a rusty chain and stagulates the man. Now..Sawyer fans/sympathisers...what would you say to that? Technically by your own support of Fords murder of Cooper, you would have no right to blame Cassidy if she were to do that, because it is precisely what Cooper did to Mary (Fords mom).

You see..there is no justification for what Sawyer did. How can you claim to be people with civilised norms when you support the murder of a man? You either have to admit to being savages or concede that your bias is blinding your logic (imo).

To be honest KoR you're talking a load of boobies :P

The only reason some people are defending what Sawyer did is because we have witnessed the way in which what Cooper did has affected him throughout his life. These people have grown to like Sawyer throughout the 68 episodes of Lost so far as they have been guided through his story and felt the ups and downs with him. So.... when the man who led to the death of his mother and father appears in front of him after about 30 years of having these deaths on his mind... I think we can understand why Sawyer killed the man, can we not?

Also, we have had a brief insight into Cassidy's life after Sawyer conned her and we saw that she wasnt too badly affected by it. Therefore if she came to the island and murdered Sawyer we would find it less justifiable.

If we did not know the history of these characters and suddenly we witnessed them murder someone who conned them once, im sure we would all find it completely unacceptable.

Case closed *slams book and runs out of courtroom*

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

I've never hated a thread so much in my life.

You aint seen nothing yet B. Joking..of course:P

And you know what makes me laugh the most? That you, KoR, wrote in your episode review that you weren't gonna revel in Sawyer's trip to the dark side.

Yeah right.

"Would you respect me if i didnt" :P (love that quote btw)

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Mrs Ferg

Hmm, Roc, I am inclined to disagree with you on this point. There are many reasons why people are sick; I would submit that when Olympic runners or marathon runners etc are sick its becuase they have pushed their body to the limit; (or have just eaten a curry the night before a 5 mile run cough cough) ........ anyway I think it could be reasonably argued that a runner throwing up in the way you described and Sawyer being sick were for different emotional reasons; I am not condoning what sawyer did but I do think his own actions sickened him.

Good points Fergie-Ferg, i'll hand it to ya.
True, there are various reasons why someone would throw up. Though i should add that my Olympic Gold analogy was just an example which i thought up of the top of my head - im sure given a minute or less of hardened concentration i could think up a more solid one
But still I acknowledge a fairly reasoned post when i see one.

I still dont think that 'Rusty-Chain' (aka Sawyer) threw up because he was regretting what he did..given the chance i think he'd do it again. I think once you kill someone with your bare hands it leave you shocked and all shook up (as Elvis would say)..though it wouldnt necessarily mean that you'd be sorry for what you did. I dont think Sawyer is regretting his actions, but hey, time will tell as a wise person once said

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

You aint seen nothing yet B. Joking..of course:P

"Would you respect me if i didnt" :P (love that quote btw)

Just think how much sobbing I must have done over this episode next time you go to write something mean. Think of my sad little mascara stained face. :P

And yes, actually. I would.

Also, I think the throwing up showed so much. Regret, sadness, relief...and perhaps on some level, disbelief in what had just happened.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Just think how much sobbing I must have done over this episode next time you go to write something mean. Think of my sad little mascara stained face. :P

Aww Beach, nothing personal..dont sob, Ford will be ok

And yes, actually. I would.

I wouldnt respect myself if i let him off the hook tho:P

Also, I think the throwing up showed so much. Regret, sadness, relief...and perhaps on some level, disbelief in what had just happened.

Hmmm..relief, yes - i can buy that, that was in there somewhere. Regret..i personally dont think so. Sadness? Well sadness comes in many forms so perhaps that was in there somewhere, but in a twisted sense, imo (no offence..i mean Sawyer was pretty messed up)

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Aww Beach, nothing personal..dont sob, Ford will be ok

I know hun, but it was a sad episode. To see him so broken like that, and then to see him throw up. Not nice. I hope so but I don't know.

I wouldnt respect myself if i let him off the hook tho:P

Maybe you should try to understand his cause a little more.

Hmmm..relief, yes - i can buy that, that was in there somewhere. Regret..i personally dont think so. Sadness? Well sadness comes in many forms so perhaps that was in there somewhere, but in a twisted sense, imo (no offence..i mean Sawyer was pretty messed up)

He's relieved it was all over, his whole life has been ruled by this - but tragically I don't think it's over for him just yet. Really? I do. Like JB has said in different posts, I don't think he would've done it if Cooper had showed some remorse and hadn't ripped up the letter. He was sad for his parents and sad that it had all come down to this....sad that he'd killed again when deep down he was trying so damn hard to change. The stress of it all made him vomit. Messed up - agreed. I would be too though in that case - I mean the turmoil he must have gone through.

[D-Roc]

[quote=Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Well, one could argue that Ana-Lucias death wouldnt have happened if it wasnt for Sawyer..see it's all relative Murg. You should only really blame the culprit..not the players. I suppose people just make excuses for Sawyer regardless of the contradictions with his past actions (general comment, not necessarily aimed at you)

In which case, why *did* you make a thing of Sawyer's role in Ana Lucia's death? Surely you should blame Michael and Michael alone going by those rules.

But you forget, i DID blame Mike..he was one of my top 5 yet i ripped into him over the whole bitter affair. Mine and his relationship has never been the same since:P He hasnt spoken a word to me in days..infact i havent seen him for ages

You must also remember that people shot me down for blaming Ford..and yet here we are months later with the shoe on the other foot..and people are suddenly saying that the periferial players in the event like Ben and Locke are as or more culpable as Ford. I feel it a crime if i do not point out the inconsistencies in the changing lans of some people

Anyway, I disagree. Of course those who take the final actions need to take their share of the culpability for that, but I also think that everyone needs to take proportionate blame for those things for which they are responsible. If you put 100% of the blame on the last person in the line, that's to excuse every abusive and contributory gesture that went into the event in question. Every battered wife who killed her husband would take 100% of the blame for that action, exonerating her abuser. Mr Paik's role in brutalising Jin would be brushed over: Jin's subsequent treatment of Sun would become entirely his fault. Everyone who hired a hitman would be in the clear because it's ultimately the hitman's decision as to whether or not he pulls the trigger. Essentially, that all looks very wrong to me.

Im not saying that Ben and Locke didnt play a role..they did. However their roles were no-where near as large or as finite as the role played by 'rusty-chain' (aka Sawyer). In a season where much is made of freewill, i feel it necessary that Sawyer take the fall for this one. Ultimately he had a choice to make..and he tried to play God..Heaven help him..

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Well im glad you dont wish to excuse Ford, though i often perceive your views as doing otherwise (hey, just being honest here). But i think you're wrong about the throwing up business..if Hitler threw up after the first 3 folks that he murdered would you be saying the same thing, Murg?

D'you really think he did? I'd say that anyone's throwing up after committing a dreadful deed is presumably indicative of something, but as I said above, it makes no real difference: it doesn't make the deed any less dreadful and it's of no significance at all if the deed is subsequently repeated because obviously then it can't have been indicative of true regret. We don't yet know how true Sawyer's apparent regret will prove to be. And I sincerely don't know how you can keep interpreting my repeatedly saying Sawyer was wrong as excusing him.

As ive said to Fegie, time will indeed tell..however im still not bought on the whole = puking in the bushes=apologetic Sawyer thing

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

And who says it's because he regretted what he did? I think you're being a mite hopeful there Murg - i think his throwing up was because he'd finally managed to do something that he'd been hoping to do most of his life. Afterall, people often throw up after winning Gold at the Olympics..you think that represents their regret?

I don't 'hope' anything. That's just how I read the event. It didn't look like a self-congratulatory bout of vomiting to me, that's all.

I didnt mean it in that sense Murg. I mean it in the sense of when someone manages to achieve something thats been driving them for years..i dont mean that he was applauding himself..but that his body merely took over and made him puke because he'd got that devil off his shoulder..

Only thing is..he removed the devil and bought himself lucifer.

Oh dear

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

But you forget, i DID blame Mike..he was one of my top 5 yet i ripped into him over the whole bitter affair. Mine and his relationship has never been the same since:P He hasnt spoken a word to me in days..infact i havent seen him for ages

I know you did, which is fine, but you also made an entire post about how Sawyer had to take a great deal of the blame for what happened to Ana Lucia and Libby, which is precisely what you claimed we shouldn't be doing. I don't see how that's any different to people's making posts about Ben's and Locke's role in Cooper's death along with their castigating Sawyer.

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

You must also remember that people shot me down for blaming Ford..and yet here we are months later with the shoe on the other foot..and people are suddenly saying that the periferial players in the event like Ben and Locke are as or more culpable as Ford. I feel it a crime if i do not point out the inconsistencies in the changing lans of some people

Well, regardless of whether or not you perceive it to be a contradiction, I genuinely do feel them to be pretty much as culpable. I know their actions were not as directly damaging as Sawyer's, but they were each in turn more capable of being distanced from the event than Sawyer was. The latter, we know, severely lacked mental clarity over the event. Locke could've argued the same excuse had he killed Cooper himself, but the fact that he couldn't do it himself meant he had to casually reason out another means of making it happen, which I think reflects extremely poorly on his morals. And Ben has no argument for crime of passion at all. Of all three players, Sawyer was least mentally capable of refraining from carrying out his part in the plan, and Ben was the most capable. That's how I see it.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

I know hun, but it was a sad episode. To see him so broken like that, and then to see him throw up. Not nice. I hope so but I don't know.

Yes it was a gripping and tense episode indeed. I did indeed feel a momentary tinge of sadness for Ford..the part when the camera looking clearly into his broken eyes reminded me of a past me and him once shared. However, I could not ignore the crime, i could not ignore the gagged body of a senior citizen as his corpes lay lifeless on the wooden floor.

He'll be ok..perhaps.

I hope that offers you some comfort Beach..you know Sawyer and I have issues:P

I wouldnt respect myself if i let him off the hook tho:P

Maybe you should try to understand his cause a little more.

Oh I understand it Beach..the man was once in my top 3 or 4. Never once have i closed my eyes to any possible redemption..indeed ive sought it..ive left the door ajar just in case the day came when the man would do right for a change. Yet that door is now leaving a draft..and winter is coming (it's not really:P)..i might have to close that door..

Hmmm..relief, yes - i can buy that, that was in there somewhere. Regret..i personally dont think so. Sadness? Well sadness comes in many forms so perhaps that was in there somewhere, but in a twisted sense, imo (no offence..i mean Sawyer was pretty messed up)

He's relieved it was all over, his whole life has been ruled by this - but tragically I don't think it's over for him just yet. Really? I do. Like JB has said in different posts, I don't think he would've done it if Cooper had showed some remorse and hadn't ripped up the letter. He was sad for his parents and sad that it had all come down to this....sad that he'd killed again when deep down he was trying so damn hard to change. The stress of it all made him vomit. Messed up - agreed. I would be too though in that case - I mean the turmoil he must have gone through.

But the thing is he intended to kill him..he even gave him the letter..his planned pre-curser to killing the man..just how he scripted it in his mind, over and over and over. I guess, it's possible that he wouldnt have killed him..however i personally dont subscribe to this 'theory'..or rather speculation:P..or hope..:P

I appreciate your appreciation of his struggle Beachy..i really do, however i feel we cannot ignore what the man did. He killed someone Beach..he killed someones grandfather. You can still love the man..prison should never be a gap too far i guess, but i feel that his actions shouldnt be supported or applauded. I understand why he would want to do it..but for me to approve of that sort of thing would be for me to sell my soul to the devil. My soul isnt for sale. Not yet..not ever. Not NeveR

Yes, sure Ford went through turmoil..but what about Cooper? What about his turmoil? Wasnt his fate for God to choose..thats why we have jails..if all men took the law into their own hands then we'd have a world of madness and chaos.

What if Cassidy came back and killed Sawyer for what he did to her..what would you be saying then? See..i guess murder is always wrong. Let God decide..he'll ease our pain..if not in this life..in the next. This is only stage one..God help Sawyer in the afterlife..unless this is the afterlife (oh God, purgatory!:P)