The Execution - From A Sawyer Fan

[JB Sawyer]

First I must ask that people give this proper consideration before hammering into it tooth and nail, prejudging if you will. I'd like to think that people will read this and actually think about the points made, rather than just immediately sticking with their guns and slating it without having really thought about it. Now I know we've had all the threads detailing the opinions condemning Sawyer for his actions, and those opinions were very well founded, worthy of thought and extremely acceptable; however now I'm going to try and go through my own opinions on the Execution of Anthony Cooper and trying to give the reasons behind Sawyer's actions, and in some form to support him. I know some (nay alot) of this has already been said in various other threads but I just wanted to collect them all together in this thread. Right I've rambled enough. Remember - open mind

Quickly, before I start, I'm not going to try and pass all the blame onto Locke and Ben, because at the end of the day Sawyer was the one that wrapped the chain around Anthony Cooper's neck. I am not debating that at all. But I am here to give reasons and discuss other possibilities.

Firstly I honestly do not believe that Sawyer would have killed Cooper had he not tore up the letter. That letter was the one thing that James had clung to ever since his parents died, it was in a strange the way, the most precious thing ever in his life. This was what would bring him retribution at the end of the day, the retribution that he had grasped for ever since he was 8. Now that he was finally able to fulfill his wish in the letter, Cooper nonchalently tore it to shreds, and at the same time as this, ripped all the pain that was in James's heart and that letter. Now before this incident, we had seen that James was in full control of his emotions, or pretty much so, and that he never once made any move to harm Cooper. So this surely tells us that he did not mean to kill Cooper straight away, and thus cannot be labelled a brutal, cold hearted murderer; for if he were he would not have waited so long to kill Cooper. It was the tearing of the letter that made James's emotions get the better of him, and take over, as he killed Cooper. Again this is not condoning his actions, but trying to show that he is not a cold murderer that kills at will without respect.

Secondly, the argument that Cooper never actually did anything to Sawyer, and that he never killed his parents. Looking at the basic cold hard facts as we can, this is, undeniably true. He wasn't the one that shot Mary, or James's father. However, we need to really put ourselves in James's shoes to fully understand why James sees Cooper as the man that murdered his family. The one plain fact that James ses above anything else is that - If Cooper had never stolen his mothers money, then his parents would still be alive. If Cooper had never come into his parents timezone, his parents would still be alive. Cooper is the sole reason that his parents are dead. I know fine well that James's father was the one who pulled the trigger; but in reality if it weren't for Cooper then the trigger would never have been pulled. If Cooper never met Mary, then James's father would not have overreacted, and his parents would not be dead. You see sometimes we have to look beyond what we see as plain facts (not saying that anybody on here does just look at plain facts and not closer details by the way).

Now was it easy for James to kill Cooper, whereas it was impossible for Locke? The answer, is simply no. As I've said above, James was never going to kill Cooper until the letter. We could see in his eyes what emotion was coursing through his entire being, how he was being brutally shaken to the core by every insult, every discard from Cooper. Eventually his emotions got the better of him and he lost all sense of control. But this does not make it so that it was easy for him to kill him. Was I the only one to see the eternal struggle within Sawyer? Was I the only one to see tears pour from his eyes? Because if it were easy for Sawyer to kill Cooper those tears would never have appeared. If it were easy that inner struggle, until the emotions took control, would never have happened. Was it easy? No sir, it certainly was not.

Now I am fully aware of the old adage "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." And yes I'm fully aware that Sawyer should never have drunk. But as I have always said I am here to give the reasons behind why he drunk, so that people can see it's not as simple as black and white. Locke did lead that horse to water, but I fully believe that he would have waited there until it did drink. We saw Locke in the Brig of that ship, he did not plan on letting Sawyer out until Cooper was dead. Obviously he wasn't going to wait until Sawyer starved to death, but he knew that given enough time Cooper would force James to snap. To be honest, I expect Locke thought it would be alot easier for James than it actually was. And while you can quite rightly say, but Locke is still not a murderer, he is surely an accomplice to murder. For we always have to look at the start of the chain of events, and it was Locke that got Sawyer involved for his own needs, had Locke never got Sawyer involved, Sawyer would now not be being labelled a cold blooded murderer.

However if we want to go right back to the very start of events that triggered the chain that led to the execution we come to Ben. Now whether it was a test or not, whether Ben wanted Locke to fail or succeed, he still said to Locke "I want you to kill your father". Now if he wanted him to do so, then he wanted Locke to become a murderer. If he wanted him to fail, as many believe, then surely he expected Locke to find someone else and make them a murderer. Ben wanted Cooper dead in any way, shape or form, that is undeniable, and whoever did it was academic, he wanted him dead so Locke could prove to him he was "ready". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but surely, surely, this is against the Others code of conduct against murder?

But anyway, I'm not here to talk about Ben and I'm not here to talk about Locke, I'm here to give the reasons behind Sawyer's actions, to prove he's not a cold-hearted murderer. And I'm definitely not going to sit here and say "Well Cooper deserved it," however much I believe some people can deserve death. That is simply a cowards way out. And it doesn't defend Sawyer. I hope I've managed to show some people a reason as to why Sawyer did what he did, and if not then I hope I've managed to ge y'all thinking.

[esn]

Originally Posted by JB_Sawyer

Firstly I honestly do not believe that Sawyer would have killed Cooper had he not tore up the letter. That letter was the one thing that James had clung to ever since his parents died, it was in a strange the way, the most precious thing ever in his life. This was what would bring him retribution at the end of the day, the retribution that he had grasped for ever since he was 8. Now that he was finally able to fulfill his wish in the letter, Cooper nonchalently tore it to shreds, and at the same time as this, ripped all the pain that was in James's heart and that letter. Now before this incident, we had seen that James was in full control of his emotions, or pretty much so, and that he never once made any move to harm Cooper. So this surely tells us that he did not mean to kill Cooper straight away, and thus cannot be labelled a brutal, cold hearted murderer; for if he were he would not have waited so long to kill Cooper. It was the tearing of the letter that made James's emotions get the better of him, and take over, as he killed Cooper. Again this is not condoning his actions, but trying to show that he is not a cold murderer that kills at will without respect.

Not ture. Has shown by his first botched attempt, it was Sawyers intention for TRS (The Real Sawyer) to read the letter at the point of his death at his own hands, for him to suffer for what he had done to him mentally and then he would take his revenge physically by killing him (if he wasnt dying already) Ture the level of agression that he showed was down to the tearing up of the letter but once he found out who that man was (unless my memory of the episode is faded already in which case correct me) he had every intention of killing him. It was just that TRSs reaction wasnt has he had hoped and he lost it.

Secondly, the argument that Cooper never actually did anything to Sawyer, and that he never killed his parents. Looking at the basic cold hard facts as we can, this is, undeniably true. He wasn't the one that shot Mary, or James's father. However, we need to really put ourselves in James's shoes to fully understand why James sees Cooper as the man that murdered his family. The one plain fact that James ses above anything else is that - If Cooper had never stolen his mothers money, then his parents would still be alive. If Cooper had never come into his parents timezone, his parents would still be alive. Cooper is the sole reason that his parents are dead. I know fine well that James's father was the one who pulled the trigger; but in reality if it weren't for Cooper then the trigger would never have been pulled. If Cooper never met Mary, then James's father would not have overreacted, and his parents would not be dead. You see sometimes we have to look beyond what we see as plain facts (not saying that anybody on here does just look at plain facts and not closer details by the way).

Fair enough I give you that. I can understand why he associated his parents death with TRS and held him responsible. However, that is the point, that twisted (worng word but I cant think of another one so dont take me to task on that) by rage (ditto) and angusish about his parents death, he looked for somone to blame and lash out on and that person was TRS. Perfectly natural of course, but when looked upon netraully, worng to do so, although even Rocco could see that TRSs actions played their part and he should bare some responsablity, but not enough for him to die at Sawyers hand

Now was it easy for James to kill Cooper, whereas it was impossible for Locke? The answer, is simply no. As I've said above, James was never going to kill Cooper until the letter. We could see in his eyes what emotion was coursing through his entire being, how he was being brutally shaken to the core by every insult, every discard from Cooper. Eventually his emotions got the better of him and he lost all sense of control. But this does not make it so that it was easy for him to kill him. Was I the only one to see the eternal struggle within Sawyer? Was I the only one to see tears pour from his eyes? Because if it were easy for Sawyer to kill Cooper those tears would never have appeared. If it were easy that inner struggle, until the emotions took control, would never have happened. Was it easy? No sir, it certainly was not.

Of course it wasnt easy, It shouldnt have been. And yes he was high on emotion at facing the man who he views has ruining his life. But also for his whole life, he has planned for this day, the day where he would get his revenge. I do think it was easier than what you say it was JB, and like I say the fact that things didnt go to plan just hurt him even more. But it is undeniable, has I said above he wanted it to go more like the way when he botched it up (without the botching up part of course)

Now I am fully aware of the old adage "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." And yes I'm fully aware that Sawyer should never have drunk. But as I have always said I am here to give the reasons behind why he drunk, so that people can see it's not as simple as black and white. Locke did lead that horse to water, but I fully believe that he would have waited there until it did drink. We saw Locke in the Brig of that ship, he did not plan on letting Sawyer out until Cooper was dead. Obviously he wasn't going to wait until Sawyer starved to death, but he knew that given enough time Cooper would force James to snap. To be honest, I expect Locke thought it would be alot easier for James than it actually was. And while you can quite rightly say, but Locke is still not a murderer, he is surely an accomplice to murder. For we always have to look at the start of the chain of events, and it was Locke that got Sawyer involved for his own needs, had Locke never got Sawyer involved, Sawyer would now not be being labelled a cold blooded murderer.

Agree with this, this is a point I made myself but not has well done has you did.

However if we want to go right back to the very start of events that triggered the chain that led to the execution we come to Ben. Now whether it was a test or not, whether Ben wanted Locke to fail or succeed, he still said to Locke "I want you to kill your father". Now if he wanted him to do so, then he wanted Locke to become a murderer. If he wanted him to fail, as many believe, then surely he expected Locke to find someone else and make them a murderer. Ben wanted Cooper dead in any way, shape or form, that is undeniable, and whoever did it was academic, he wanted him dead so Locke could prove to him he was "ready". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but surely, surely, this is against the Others code of conduct against murder?

Ditto to my above comment. Also why I was pushed away from, not only the main lostie core but also even further from the others has well. I have said all I am going to on this on this forum.

But anyway, I'm not here to talk about Ben and I'm not here to talk about Locke, I'm here to give the reasons behind Sawyer's actions, to prove he's not a cold-hearted murderer. And I'm definitely not going to sit here and say "Well Cooper deserved it," however much I believe some people can deserve death. That is simply a cowards way out. And it doesn't defend Sawyer. I hope I've managed to show some people a reason as to why Sawyer did what he did, and if not then I hope I've managed to ge y'all thinking.

A very well thought out piece of work JB, well done. Good arguments there and yes you did give me a lot to think about and I hope my reply has matched up to your orginal piece.

[Beach Crew]

JB you said everything I wanted to say and more. Made me proud sweetie.

I will reply to it once I get over the shock of some of the things that have been written.

But thanks for this.

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by esn

Not ture. Has shown by his first botched attempt, it was Sawyers intention for TRS (The Real Sawyer) to read the letter at the point of his death at his own hands, for him to suffer for what he had done to him mentally and then he would take his revenge physically by killing him (if he wasnt dying already) Ture the level of agression that he showed was down to the tearing up of the letter but once he found out who that man was (unless my memory of the episode is faded already in which case correct me) he had every intention of killing him. It was just that TRSs reaction wasnt has he had hoped and he lost it.

Hmm I disagree. You see a couple of seasons ago I'd agree with you no question about the above point if the execution had happened then. But I personally feel that Sawyer has managed to exorcise alot of his demons in the time that he's been on the island. Personally I believe that if this was Season 1 or 2, then we would have had none of the hesitancy that we saw from Sawyer this time. I really do think that if it weren't for the letter being torn (and you're completely right when you say that it produced the level of aggression that we saw) then Cooper would not have been killed; or not that soon at any rate. But I guess we'll just disagree on that one lol.

Fair enough I give you that. I can understand why he associated his parents death with TRS and held him responsible. However, that is the point, that twisted (worng word but I cant think of another one so dont take me to task on that) by rage (ditto) and angusish about his parents death, he looked for somone to blame and lash out on and that person was TRS. Perfectly natural of course, but when looked upon netraully, worng to do so, although even Rocco could see that TRSs actions played their part and he should bare some responsablity, but not enough for him to die at Sawyers hand

Well who else should he have lashed out at and blamed? Cooper was the man that caused his parents death. Yes he wasn't the one that pulled the trigger, but if it were not for Cooper than James's parents would still be alive. That for me personally, and remember that's solely only my opinion I'm not trying to force it on anybody, is just reason for James to want Cooper dead.

Of course it wasnt easy, It shouldnt have been. And yes he was high on emotion at facing the man who he views has ruining his life. But also for his whole life, he has planned for this day, the day where he would get his revenge. I do think it was easier than what you say it was JB, and like I say the fact that things didnt go to plan just hurt him even more. But it is undeniable, has I said above he wanted it to go more like the way when he botched it up (without the botching up part of course)

Ah but this time he never even saw that day coming. James's plan, if you can call it that, was to find the real Sawyer and give him the letter. He did not find him, he was thrust upon him. This couldn't be planned for, what plan could be undertaken from there? This wasn't the 'plan' at all. I totally disagree with it not being part of his plan. Bt again, that's just me lol.

A very well thought out piece of work JB, well done. Good arguments there and yes you did give me a lot to think about and I hope my reply has matched up to your orginal piece.

Thanks esn Well yes definitely, your answers were one of those horrible ones where you can think of a reply perfectly in your head but can't type it down lol. But cheers.

[D-Roc]

Firstly, i appreciate the time and consideration that you spent compiling this, JB It's good to see such dedication here at the LC, even if i dont agree with most of it.

Originally Posted by JB_Sawyer

First I must ask that people give this proper consideration before hammering into it tooth and nail, prejudging if you will. I'd like to think that people will read this and actually think about the points made, rather than just immediately sticking with their guns and slating it without having really thought about it. Now I know we've had all the threads detailing the opinions condemning Sawyer for his actions, and those opinions were very well founded, worthy of thought and extremely acceptable; however now I'm going to try and go through my own opinions on the Execution of Anthony Cooper and trying to give the reasons behind Sawyer's actions, and in some form to support him. I know some (nay alot) of this has already been said in various other threads but I just wanted to collect them all together in this thread. Right I've rambled enough. Remember - open mind

My mind is open.."i have plugged into a higher purpose and returned changed" :P

Quickly, before I start, I'm not going to try and pass all the blame onto Locke and Ben, because at the end of the day Sawyer was the one that wrapped the chain around Anthony Cooper's neck. I am not debating that at all. But I am here to give reasons and discuss other possibilities.

Thats good to hear..ad i agree..Sawyer is the one to blame

Firstly I honestly do not believe that Sawyer would have killed Cooper had he not tore up the letter. That letter was the one thing that James had clung to ever since his parents died, it was in a strange the way, the most precious thing ever in his life. This was what would bring him retribution at the end of the day, the retribution that he had grasped for ever since he was 8. Now that he was finally able to fulfill his wish in the letter, Cooper nonchalently tore it to shreds, and at the same time as this, ripped all the pain that was in James's heart and that letter. Now before this incident, we had seen that James was in full control of his emotions, or pretty much so, and that he never once made any move to harm Cooper. So this surely tells us that he did not mean to kill Cooper straight away, and thus cannot be labelled a brutal, cold hearted murderer; for if he were he would not have waited so long to kill Cooper. It was the tearing of the letter that made James's emotions get the better of him, and take over, as he killed Cooper. Again this is not condoning his actions, but trying to show that he is not a cold murderer that kills at will without respect.

Well personally i think he would've killed him..the tearing of the letter merely expediated Coopers execution. But i admit that it isnt cannon..but i do feel that he would've still killed him. We shouldnt forget that james' emotions had already gotten the better of him..he was already in a state of 'Lostidity' (yes, i made that word up). He may have probed Cooper somemore, but Cooper would've soon said/done something which would've triggered Ford..Ford was merely waiting for that trigger..remember, he is a man of self-perpetuating pain..he thrives off it.. he needs it..

Secondly, the argument that Cooper never actually did anything to Sawyer, and that he never killed his parents. Looking at the basic cold hard facts as we can, this is, undeniably true. He wasn't the one that shot Mary, or James's father. However, we need to really put ourselves in James's shoes to fully understand why James sees Cooper as the man that murdered his family. The one plain fact that James ses above anything else is that - If Cooper had never stolen his mothers money, then his parents would still be alive. If Cooper had never come into his parents timezone, his parents would still be alive. Cooper is the sole reason that his parents are dead. I know fine well that James's father was the one who pulled the trigger; but in reality if it weren't for Cooper then the trigger would never have been pulled. If Cooper never met Mary, then James's father would not have overreacted, and his parents would not be dead. You see sometimes we have to look beyond what we see as plain facts (not saying that anybody on here does just look at plain facts and not closer details by the way).

But JB, this is a dangerous way to view life. We've all (im sure) had people come into our lives and mess things up to varying degrees..weve all been there (in varying degrees)..but to allow ourselves to take revenge by 'killing' that person..and when that person didnt mean to do it..well..

We cant afford to look at things simplistically..if we all did what Sawyer has done then we'd live in a world without any hope.

I can understand why Ford would want to do it, but for me personally to give my support to such action would be me selling my soul. One does not have to support something in order to understand it. I will never justify murder..of course we are all capable, but to support to loss of human life is depraved imo.

Now was it easy for James to kill Cooper, whereas it was impossible for Locke? The answer, is simply no. As I've said above, James was never going to kill Cooper until the letter.

Sorry..that is your opinion and it is far from cannon.

We could see in his eyes what emotion was coursing through his entire being, how he was being brutally shaken to the core by every insult, every discard from Cooper. Eventually his emotions got the better of him and he lost all sense of control.

That is not reason enough to kill a man..

But this does not make it so that it was easy for him to kill him. Was I the only one to see the eternal struggle within Sawyer? Was I the only one to see tears pour from his eyes? Because if it were easy for Sawyer to kill Cooper those tears would never have appeared. If it were easy that inner struggle, until the emotions took control, would never have happened. Was it easy? No sir, it certainly was not.

I saw the tears JB..but tears come in many forms and have many meanings. Of course it *wasnt easy* for Ford to execute the man..but it was *impossible* for Locke to do it..therein lies your answer

Now I am fully aware of the old adage "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." And yes I'm fully aware that Sawyer should never have drunk. But as I have always said I am here to give the reasons behind why he drunk, so that people can see it's not as simple as black and white. Locke did lead that horse to water, but I fully believe that he would have waited there until it did drink. We saw Locke in the Brig of that ship, he did not plan on letting Sawyer out until Cooper was dead. Obviously he wasn't going to wait until Sawyer starved to death, but he knew that given enough time Cooper would force James to snap. To be honest, I expect Locke thought it would be alot easier for James than it actually was. And while you can quite rightly say, but Locke is still not a murderer, he is surely an accomplice to murder. For we always have to look at the start of the chain of events, and it was Locke that got Sawyer involved for his own needs, had Locke never got Sawyer involved, Sawyer would now not be being labelled a cold blooded murderer.

This chian of events thing really can come back to harm your own very Sawyer, so i wouldnt focus on it tbh. I think your best bet is to focus on any potential future good deeds that he may do. Who knows, it might even happen moments before his death. Too late for redemption though

However if we want to go right back to the very start of events that triggered the chain that led to the execution we come to Ben. Now whether it was a test or not, whether Ben wanted Locke to fail or succeed, he still said to Locke "I want you to kill your father". Now if he wanted him to do so, then he wanted Locke to become a murderer. If he wanted him to fail, as many believe, then surely he expected Locke to find someone else and make them a murderer. Ben wanted Cooper dead in any way, shape or form, that is undeniable, and whoever did it was academic, he wanted him dead so Locke could prove to him he was "ready". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but surely, surely, this is against the Others code of conduct against murder?

You misunderstand JB..By Locke not killing Cooper thats all Ben cares about..they want Locke..*not* Sawyer..so if Sawyer kills Cooper (which he did), it doesnt break their codes of conduct because Sawyer is not as important to them. The Others are realists..they accept that murder exists.

But anyway, I'm not here to talk about Ben and I'm not here to talk about Locke, I'm here to give the reasons behind Sawyer's actions, to prove he's not a cold-hearted murderer. And I'm definitely not going to sit here and say "Well Cooper deserved it," however much I believe some people can deserve death. That is simply a cowards way out. And it doesn't defend Sawyer. I hope I've managed to show some people a reason as to why Sawyer did what he did, and if not then I hope I've managed to ge y'all thinking.

Hmm, well im sure you've already said elsewhere that you're glad he killed him, but i'll take your word for it (no editing ya hear:P)

Well my opinion is the same as it was before i started reading this. I feel that your investment in Ford is so much that you steer towards doing your upmost to get him out of the steaming mire he is in. However, i do feel that your views are on the whole sincere and that you do believe in what you're saying, which deserves credit.

[esn]

Originally Posted by JB_Sawyer

Hmm I disagree. You see a couple of seasons ago I'd agree with you no question about the above point if the execution had happened then. But I personally feel that Sawyer has managed to exorcise alot of his demons in the time that he's been on the island. Personally I believe that if this was Season 1 or 2, then we would have had none of the hesitancy that we saw from Sawyer this time. I really do think that if it weren't for the letter being torn (and you're completely right when you say that it produced the level of aggression that we saw) then Cooper would not have been killed; or not that soon at any rate. But I guess we'll just disagree on that one lol.

Ok this is just me here then. I think what we saw was him trying to change, trying not to be that man that killed Duckett, but ultimatley, when it came down to it he couldnt and went with the orginal plan has it were.

Well who else should he have lashed out at and blamed? Cooper was the man that caused his parents death. Yes he wasn't the one that pulled the trigger, but if it were not for Cooper than James's parents would still be alive. That for me personally, and remember that's solely only my opinion I'm not trying to force it on anybody, is just reason for James to want Cooper dead.

I dont say he shouldnt have blamed anybody. I also say it was understanderbale to the degree. Im just saying IMO it isnt a just reason to kill the guy, no matter how much you hate the guy.

Ah but this time he never even saw that day coming. James's plan, if you can call it that, was to find the real Sawyer and give him the letter. He did not find him, he was thrust upon him. This couldn't be planned for, what plan could be undertaken from there? This wasn't the 'plan' at all. I totally disagree with it not being part of his plan. Bt again, that's just me lol.

Well the way I look at it, his plan was to meet TRS, show him the letter/read it to and kill him. I might have a dodgy memory here, but weather it was by somone else introducing him or finding him himself (dont forget, he had other business at the same time) but funamentally the plan was the same once he had met TRS.

Thanks esn Well yes definitely, your answers were one of those horrible ones where you can think of a reply perfectly in your head but can't type it down lol. But cheers.

Not a problem man. I get that problem a lot (which explains a lot of my posts LOL.)