RIP Sawyers Soul

[D-Roc]

I find it quite ironic that Locke has been labelled a murderer over the past few weeks. I find it ironic that Ben has been labelled a murderer over the last 20 episodes.

Because last night, the man who constantly gets away with murder..literally got away with murder. How cruel the twist of fate, huh

Dont get me wrong, Cooper had it coming..but surely..surely there is no excuse for Sawyer now. Surely his supporters can now accept that his brutal murder of Cooper was the final straw..the one which broke the camels back?

Lets not forget that Locke had reason to kill Cooper too..perhaps more reason than Sawyer had. Yet, who is the one with blood dripping from his hands.

Sawyer Ford..your pain was real brother, but you just lost your soul.

Im sure thewre are those who will still deem Ben and Locke (the islands ONLY 2 non killers) as more culpable than Sawyer..

[-x-madegurl-x-]

I see your point... but Locke is kind of to blame for Cooper's death.
Sawyer would never have found out of killed him if Locke hadn't trekked him through the jungle.

[esn]

I havent, I said in my thread "three men with blood on thier hands" that ulitmately, Sawyer was responsible. You can take a horse to water but not make him drink and Sawyer drank the trough full.

But I also make the point in that thread that both Ben and Locke should bear a degree of responsiablity for that murder (thus also having blood on their hands)

[Murgatroyd]

Yes. I do. In order - well, I feel contempt for all of them in varying degrees, but mostly for Ben, and then Locke and then Sawyer. Kick my conscience to bits if you want, but that's the way of it. Sawyer was far and away the more manipulated of the three and seemed to be acting on pure, barely controllable emotion. His final act (which it should go without saying was ghastly, but I'm wary enough these days that I want to say that out loud lest I'm instead laid open to accusations of applauding it) seemed essentially spontaneous. Locke had very genuine reasons to want Cooper dead, but manipulating another man into performing that deed because that's what Locke wanted is pretty abysmal behaviour... still I have a lot of sympathy for him because of what he's been through, but it doesn't amount to an excuse for his behaviour. Obviously I'm not placing the same significance on the precise hand that killed the victim as Ben is, because I'd have had more sympathy for Locke had he done the deed himself rather than roping in a third party and taking the credit. But Ben had no good reason for his behaviour whatsoever. That was just callous and sick. So yeah. If you're looking for someone who considers Ben more culpable than the two manipulated parties beneath him... hi there.

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Yes. I do. In order - well, I feel contempt for all of them in varying degrees, but mostly for Ben, and then Locke and then Sawyer. Kick my conscience to bits if you want, but that's the way of it. Sawyer was far and away the more manipulated of the three and seemed to be acting on pure, barely controllable emotion. His final act (which it should go without saying was ghastly, but I'm wary enough these days that I want to say that out loud lest I'm instead laid open to accusations of applauding it) seemed essentially spontaneous. Locke had very genuine reasons to want Cooper dead, but manipulating another man into performing that deed because that's what Locke wanted is pretty abysmal behaviour... still I have a lot of sympathy for him because of what he's been through, but it doesn't amount to an excuse for his behaviour. Obviously I'm not placing the same significance on the precise hand that killed the victim as Ben is, because I'd have had more sympathy for Locke had he done the deed himself rather than roping in a third party and taking the credit. But Ben had no good reason for his behaviour whatsoever. That was just callous and sick. So yeah. If you're looking for someone who considers Ben more culpable than the two manipulated parties beneath him... hi there.

Spot on. I was gonna reply to this but my reply would have sounded identical to that ^, only with more swearing and less big words. See my review for my opinions but Murg is spot on. And KoR you need mental help.

[Murgatroyd]

Locke's behaviour becomes more disturbing the more you think about it. Had he been able to kill Cooper himself, that would've meant he felt he had sufficient reason and trauma to do so. But he actually didn't... he had him killed because that's what Ben wanted, not because he wanted it himself. That's distressingly cold behaviour.

And JB - thank you for supporting my argument, but please think about what else you're saying there. I think personalities should always be kept out of mature debate. We're picking holes in the words, not in the people who made them.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by -x-madegurl-x-

I see your point... but Locke is kind of to blame for Cooper's death.
Sawyer would never have found out of killed him if Locke hadn't trekked him through the jungle.

And yet people constantly tell me that Sawyer isnt to blame for Ana's death, in being irresponsible with the guns etc. "Fine" is said.."as long as fairness is applied to everyone", i said

Well..the time has now come for fairness We cant blame the 'players' for the choice of a man. Sawyer made his choice..unlike Ana he didnt say 'no'. Now remember when folks still lambasted Ana, even when she chose *not* to kill Ben? And yet why is Sawyer afforded all of this love and support when he actually kills a man in a similar situation?

There is much sense in what i say..tho many will deny it..

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by esn

I havent, I said in my thread "three men with blood on thier hands" that ulitmately, Sawyer was responsible. You can take a horse to water but not make him drink and Sawyer drank the trough full.

But I also make the point in that thread that both Ben and Locke should bear**a degree of responsiablity for that murder (thus also having blood on their hands)

Yes, a tiny one.
This shouldnt even be about Locke and Ben. At the end of the day Sawyer brutality killed a man with a rusty chain..
This is a dark day for Sawyer fans..i hope Beachy is ok

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Locke's behaviour becomes more disturbing the more you think about it. Had he been able to kill Cooper himself, that would've meant he felt he had sufficient reason and trauma to do so. But he actually didn't... he had him killed because that's what Ben wanted, not because he wanted it himself. That's distressingly cold behaviour.

And JB - thank you for supporting my argument, but please think about what else you're saying there. I think personalities should always be kept out of mature debate. We're picking holes in the words, not in the people who made them.

Well I find it in the exact same way as other people, the list of blame lies solely in one order - Ben, Locke then Sawyer. Now I've gone over in the discussion thread (someone please read that lol) but what I found worse about Locke more than anything, is he forced Sawyer to do what he did, put him through all that torture and emotional anguish, all to get back to the Others. That was the lying factor beneath it all. Not that he wanted his father dead but that he wanted to get back to Ben, and the only way he could was with his father over his shoulder. Now that's disturbing in my opinion.

Wel you see I always see it, and bearing in mind I'm not a professional debater :P, as that the words written are the direct thoughts of the person writing them. Therefore to critique the words is to critique the person themselves and so basically I just save time. Afterall in court do the lawyers not pick holes in the people themselves, aswell as the words?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by JB_Sawyer

Spot on. I was gonna reply to this but my reply would have sounded identical to that ^, only with more swearing and less big words. See my review for my opinions but Murg is spot on. And KoR you need mental help.

Ooh do i spot a personal dig..something ive been wrongly accused of in the past (for using smilies would you believe!)..perhaps i ignore insults more than people realise. Consider your warning level increased btw I think you will find that i am not the one in need of mental help Jb..the person defending a murder

But for real man..this is no place for personal insults..many men would ban you straight out..perhaps you should simmer down and keep personal insults within the walls of your own mind?

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Ooh do i spot a personal dig..something ive been wrongly accused of in the past (for using smilies would you believe!)..perhaps i ignore insults more than people realise. Consider your warning level increased btw**I think you will find that i am not the one in need of mental help Jb..the person defending a murder

But for real man..this is no place for personal insults..many men would ban you straight out..perhaps you should simmer down and keep personal insults within the walls of your own mind?

D'y'know what KoR, that wasn't actually meant to be serious. It was more meant in jest than in malicious intent. It was a joke, I could be saying alot more offending things, and I used to, but I've tried to tone that down. The smilies were insulting but did we ever get an apology dude? I'm not trying to be nasty here but there was several people who did feel personally insulted, yet I can never remember an apology. If you were personally offended by the above then I sincerely apologise as it was never meant to be an insult or 'dig'. But let my warning level go up if you want, but for something said in jest? All I meant by it was that I feel these threads (such as Sawyer's Soul and Vindication) lack sense. That be all.

[The_other_other]

Korevo, i personally cannot flame sawyer, because the fact is that i would have done what he did in that episode. And you know what? It wasnt murder. It was justice.

Of course if sawyer had said, 'i forgive you', then he would have gained my everlasting respect, but then we all know how cooper would have responded. He would have laughed, and the one crime in my eyes which is inexcusable is spitting in the hand of forgivness. This is what cooper has been repeatedly guilty of, and for that he deserved to die. Sawyer's soul is not dead. Its in great jeapordy, but it sure as hell aint dead

[Mrs Ferg]

this is a tough one. On one hand, sawyer killed a man, but things are never that black and white. Locke had to have cooper dead and he did not have the balls to do the final act so went to someone who he had inside information on and thus could manipule into doing something he wanted done (and arguably sawyer wanted aswell). Locke had the advangate he had read James file. At the end of this episode, Locke had "conned" James (by getting him to the Black Rock) in the same way as James had conned in the past and the real Sawyer had conned.

So my conculsion is that James did murder Cooper but is not entirely to blame and Locke should carry the burden, blame and shame for the act as much (if not more) than James because he knew how James would react, he mantipulated him to the act.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by JB_Sawyer

Qu