Change of Heart

[firebreathingfishies]

Right, I've got my kevlar vest on already for protection, because i'm probably going to need it, but I've had a change of heart. Since season 1 i've always been 'Yay go Locke!!' and kind of like 'meh towards Jack, but since the last ep of season 3 (i don't know whether it was the flashforward or what) but I'm been feeling more pro-Jack than pro-Locke.
The grenade scene affected it a lot i think - Locke's getting a bit Colonel Kurtz for my liking. And Jack isn't really being nasty or horrible to the freighties, he just wants to know what the hell is going on. If you think about it, no one has ever really explained anything to him in a way he would understand. Locke & Ben have always been very cryptic (but apparently they can understand each other fine ). And plus atm the people at the beach are in ignorance a bit, don't you think?
I just thought I'd say that and become one of the few people on the forum who actually sticks up for Jack.

*readies for Jack-bashing*

*hides in bunker*

[D-Roc]

But Jack like, tortured Sawyer and refuses to give people medication and stuff - that's his own people aswell. Whereas Locke simply put a grenade in a man's mouth..a man who is part of a group who presumably want to harm the island..

:/

[firebreathingfishies]

well technically it was Sayid, wasn't it? Jack just let it happen - however in the same way you could say that Locke technically let Boone die. He trusted the dream he had enough to follow it to the plane, but a bloody Boone didn't seem to be a problem.

[Beach Crew]

I've never understood why everyone hates Jack so much, seriously, I haven't. He's a good guy, he tries to do his best by people but yet he's criticised for his every move. I can't help but think if it'd been someone else who had taken charge, say Charlie or such like, that person would've gotten criticised for his decisions too. It's almost like a leader can do no good on this island.

As for Jack, I'm glad you've changed your mind FBF. He's a good, decent guy and he tries so hard to be a good leader, a doctor and get his people rescued.

To my recollection we've only seen 4 people rival Jack's leadership. Locke, when he has his little group. Ana Lucia and the Tailies. Sawyer when Jack/Kate etc were missing from camp and Ben with the Others. They all try but none of them got criticised as much as Jack does for his leadership over the island.

Comparing Jack to Locke always brings me joy because I always side with Jack as I think Jack is so determined to keep his camp alive and get them rescued, whereas Locke is more concerned with his own destiny and sometimes allows people to get lost (BOONE!) in the process.

Yes, Jack has done some bad things, like, agreeing to the torture of Sawyer, but he ultimately stopped it, and fixed him. And let's not forget it was Sayid who made it worse, and Sawyer (as much as it pains me) wasn't entirely blameless in the situation.

But Jack tries, and he tries hard, and he (for the most part) runs a democracy, which is important, and that's why I like him.

But I'll stop talking about Jack now, coz well, it's weird when you're a Sawyer fan, lol.

[firebreathingfishies]

thanks beachy and you're right about nobody else seeming to get critisised. it is confusing.
oh and also Locke allowed Sayid to go and beat the crap out of Ben and Jack put a stop to that. I think a lot of people tend to forget the bad stuff other characters have done. Most of the grief given to Jack is just biased and there's not many strong arguments that can hold up against him.

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by Beachy

Yes, Jack has done some bad things, like, agreeing to the torture of Sawyer, but he ultimately stopped it, and fixed him. And let's not forget it was Sayid who made it worse, and Sawyer (as much as it pains me) wasn't entirely blameless in the situation.

It's worth remembering too that Locke gave Sayid the seed of doubt regarding Sawyer in the first place - not to mention the knife - knowing all along that he himself was the man Sayid was after. It was the first truly despicable thing Locke did and I remember totally excusing it at the time. I think that's the key behind the Jack-hatred - he's a dull, drably conceived character with about half the charisma you ought to expect from a lead (no offence to Matthew Fox, who does what he can with the role), and he's presented too frequently as some kind of Super-Human saint of a doctor when actually he's a lot more flawed than sometimes the writers are willing to admit. But for all that I find Jack a terribly dull and imperfect boy, I think he's far from being the worst leader-figure on the island (though maybe that doesn't say much for the others!), and certainly he's better intentioned towards those in his charge than, for example, Locke and Ben, who always seem to me to be mostly concerned with their own sense of importance and cult of mystique ... and heaven help anyone whose suffering might help them preserve that.

[Easily confused]

I was a huge Jack fan in S1 and was surprised to find some many people didn't like him then S2 I started to understand why they didn't like him then S3 I was fed up with him but yes S4 I feel he is improving - I like his character I just feel he gets too much storyline with not much content when others could be given a chance

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by Murg

It's worth remembering too that Locke gave Sayid the seed of doubt regarding Sawyer in the first place - not to mention the knife - knowing all along that he himself was the man Sayid was after. It was the first truly despicable thing Locke did and I remember totally excusing it at the time. I think that's the key behind the Jack-hatred - he's a dull, drably conceived character with about half the charisma you ought to expect from a lead (no offence to Matthew Fox, who does what he can with the role), and he's presented too frequently as some kind of Super-Human saint of a doctor when actually he's a lot more flawed than sometimes the writers are willing to admit. But for all that I find Jack a terribly dull and imperfect boy, I think he's far from being the worst leader-figure on the island (though maybe that doesn't say much for the others!), and certainly he's better intentioned towards those in his charge than, for example, Locke and Ben, who always seem to me to be mostly concerned with their own sense of importance and cult of mystique ... and heaven help anyone whose suffering might help them preserve that.

Murg, you are the best. People seem to forget this fact, that Locke pretty much set Sawyer up to get punished, and he did. He shifted blame from himself onto Sawyer, which is bad enough, and then he gave Sayid (whom at this point hated Sawyer) a knife, and we're expected to excuse him for this? Like you said, however, many people did! I think that was one of the events that made me hate Locke. Jack and Sayid didn't have a clear picture, they both had decided Sawyer was guilty becuase of Locke's words and Sawyer's teasing, and so acted in a horrific manner. But sorry, we're looking at Jack here aren't we? Jack who saved Sawyer after this event, and Jack who tried his hardest to save Boone after Locke and Boone went out into the jungle together. (*Looks at Ki* Whispering! )

Jack, as you say, has never done the most exciting of things, but when has he gotten chance to? Between tending to people's wounds, looking for rescue, finding water....he's the leader and so gets the boring jobs, whereas other characters get to play in waterfalls, and go catch birds. But let's not forget Jack has a fun side, think of him at the golf course. But I'd always put my trust in (first Sawyer and then) Jack, and it would take a heck of a lot for me to follow Locke's orders, because well, I don't wanna end up like Boone.

(And I'm sorry if I'm ranting but I've torn a ligament in my knee and it hurts and thus I am angry )

[Kiowa Warrior]

In my view the writers were on something when they wrote Locke during Eggtown, since not only was his character pretty, well, mean towards everyone, he was put back into the position he was way back in S2 with letting Ben easily get the better of him, and then he spouted that rubbish about Jack's leadership style being democratic comapred to his! But I have faith that his character will get back on track, no doubt...

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Jack who saved Sawyer after this event, and Jack who tried his hardest to save Boone after Locke and Boone went out into the jungle together. (*Looks at Ki* Whispering! )

And is this the same Jack that threatened to withhold life saving medication to Sawyer unless he gave up Kate's case to him? One of the things I find utterly pathetic about Jack is that he's completely willing to allow someone to suffer and die just so that he can score points with the girl he likes What a doctor, what a guy...

Let's not forget that although Jack wanted to save Boone's life - even though any half decent human being would want the same - he was willing to prolong Boone's suffering just because he had issues letting go!
(And maybe if Boone had better hearing he would have heard Locke's frantic whispering and would have come down )

I wouldn't put my trust in Jack if he was the last person alive on that island, since it's clear that he doesn't provide medical treatment for people unconditionally, doesn't allow people to come on jungle treks if he doesn't want them to (think Kate in The Hunting Party) and every other time he's on screen he's either shouting, crying or being violent towards someone when he could just as easily not be.