Destiny, Reincarnation & The Island

[Miss Austen]

I've been doing some thinking and I've come to the conclusion that most of the Losties and even The Others are all meant to be on the island (perhaps forever).

I remember in one episode Ben said they had problems keeping people on the island and to commit to the project. That applied to Juliet but could have applied to any of the Losties or The Others.

I think I may also have an idea of why The Others talk about being "The Good Guys" yet don't flinch when they order someone to be killed.

I think being killed or dying has a totally different concept on the island. It doesn't compare with 'real life' or perhaps it does? On the island, if you haven't fulfilled your destiny, you will be allowed to leave the island for another chance or reincarnated to turn up in the real world again and somehow find your way back to the island.

We've seen this happen with Charlotte, Michael, Ben, Desmond, Christian Shepherd, Yemi and seemingly the Oceanic 6 at some point.

Look at the times people have attempted to commit suicide and something has occurred to prevent them doing so - this is 'course correction' in my view. Locke and Jack weren't meant to die or kill themselves at this point.

I would suggest that those people who have died on the island have either fulfilled their destiny and aren't required any further, or are waiting to come back to the island in another life.

Remember Christian Shepherd telling Michael: "You can go now." I presume this meant he had fulfilled his destiny. Before this point, Michael couldn't be killed.

As for people like Cooper, I think he was already dead when Sawyer killed him; but his spirit in bodily form was brought to the island to enable Sawyer and Locke to fulfill their destinies because they were both not fulfilling their potential. They were both crippled by their personal demons (Cooper). I think the killing of Cooper wasn't real. Cooper had already been in a car accident and probably died in that; but his spirit was captured by The Others for their own purposes. We know that spirits can take on bodily form on the island and off island. We've seen Yemi, Christian Shepherd, Ana Lucia and Charlie seemingly return from the dead or was it just their spirit? More likely I think. We've even seen Mr Friendly seemingly alive and well off island and yet Sawyer allegedly killed Mr Friendly! Mikhail too also keeps coming back from the dead!

The plot doesn't seem quite so puzzling if viewed in this way and if this were true, Ben wouldn't be a bad character after all. He would just be fulfilling his own destiny.

Maybe I should have put this on the Theories and Speculation Board?

[D-Roc]

Yes, the island certainly has it's idea of destiny that it's players have to fulfil. To what ends, is unknown.

I doubt Cooper was already dead when Sawyer killed him, as much as Sawyer fans would love to hold on to some crumbs of a reprive, i'm afraid he murdered the old pensioner plain and simple In my view the sightings of Yemi, Ana, Christian etc are subconscious entities - that's not to say they aren't the spirits of those people, but it's clear (to me) that these 'sightings' are agenda based - either by guilt or by the island tap tap tapping into the subconscious of a particular 'player'. Cooper was very distinct from these 'visions' - Cooper was flesh and blood..Cooper didn't disappear in a puff of smoke..Cooper 'was' killed. Can one kill an apparition/manifestation/vision? Doubtful.

Mr. Friendly was alive and well off the island 'before' Sawyer (look, him again!) killed jovial Tom. The episode in which he indulged in some Alturo and met Michael (Meet Kevin Johnson) took place before the Season 3 finale, in which Sawyer execute another old man. My belief is that Tom either used the Submarine (before Locke blew it up) or used the magic box.. or even the Vault to visit NYC. The Submarine is the best bet as it would coincide with Tom's absense for the period leading up to "Stranger in a Strange Land" and the run of episodes leading up to Locke going mental with explosives.

Of course, alternatively, the Sub may not have been destroyed and the Others may have known this and continued to use it post Locke 'smoke and mirrors'.

Course Ben's not a "bad character" - he's doing a difficult job that very few can do well. Heck, even dear John has struggled a mere 3 years down the line.

[Miss Austen]

I hear what you're saying, but why in that case would Ben encourage Locke to kill his father? Ben isn't stupid and I feel sure he knew Locke would get Sawyer to do the deed.

Cooper did say he had just been in an automobile accident when he found himself on the island, so how did he get to the island if he was on a hospital stretcher?

Did The Others snatch him from the hospital? Some lengths to go to eh?

Sawyer has killed a few people but Ben in this case is no better. Why present Cooper to Locke and tell him he has to kill him? Ben may not have pulled the trigger; but he did set up the situation and encourage the old pensioner's demise.

[Miss Austen]

I was trying to take the heat off Sawyer but also Ben!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Miss Austen

I hear what you're saying, but why in that case would Ben encourage Locke to kill his father? Ben isn't stupid and I feel sure he knew Locke would get Sawyer to do the deed.

Because Ben knew (believed) that Locke wouldn't be able to do it - it was Ben's way of exposing Locke's weaknesses, since it was paramount that a real 'chosen one' (which they believed Locke to be) is able to let go (purge) the things that hold him back - in Locke's case it was Cooper, but he wasn't able to do it, so ben claimed a short-lived victory there.

Ben didn't want Locke to kill Cooper..he was pleased when Locke failed because it meant that Locke still wasn't ready. It was actually Alpert who suggested that Locke get Sawyer to do the deed. Alpert was the one who wanted Locke to "find himself" and take Ben's place, which Ben was probably only keeping warm until Locke was 'ready'.

Cooper did say he had just been in an automobile accident when he found himself on the island, so how did he get to the island if he was on a hospital stretcher?

My guess is that the Others (Alpert of whoever) caused the accident and posed as a Ambulance technician and stole him away to the island via the submarine. Or there's the 'magic box'. Basically my believe is that this was the 'real Cooper'. He even thought he was in hell, hence why he goaded Sawyer because he thought that the consequences of doing so wouldn't be 'real'.

Did The Others snatch him from the hospital? Some lengths to go to eh?

I would guess that they caused whatever accident he had and stole him away straight from the scene (i.e. they were the ambulance guys who smiled at him as they injected him with the same 'go to sleep now' stuff, that orally they gave Jules in NiP.

Yes it is some lengths to go to, but then look at the other things they have done, like send a mole into the camp, get a live-feed on Rachel for Jules, pretend to be Henry Gale etc etc.

We also have to bear in mind that the Others..especially the "natives" like Alpert might have other 'skills' (so to speak) at their disposal. I mean, look at how Alpert visited Locke when he was a boy..the question there is 'when' did this take place - was it 'real-time' (as it happened), or does Alpert have access to somekind of time and space facilitiy like the Frozen Donkey Wheel?

Sawyer has killed a few people but Ben in this case is no better. Why present Cooper to Locke and tell him he has to kill him? Ben may not have pulled the trigger; but he did set up the situation and encourage the old pensioner's demise.

Ben has killed one person, Sawyer has killed countless people Also, Sawyer kills out vengence and self-pity..Ben is working for alturistic means and even when he has the chance to kill people, like I don't know, Jin/bern and Sayid, for one of many examples...he doesn't. It's just that people assume Ben has killed alot of people cuz that's the impression that's stuck from the early days when the creators tricked people into thinking that the Others were bad.

To answer your other question, Ben didn't want Locke to kill Cooper and 'knew' that he wouldn't be able to! Remember, by Locke not killing Cooper at the ruins, this deflated Locke's 'specialness' (look at the disappointment on the faces of the Others watching on) and allowed Ben to retain his position. Sorry M-A, but in time I think you'll agree with me on this one. It was Alpert (not Ben!) who set the play for Sawyer to kill Cooper in motion. Ben didn't want Locke to find a way to do it because it would mean that Locke WAS the one. By killing Cooper Locke was making a sacrifice and e was also fulfilling one of the pre-requisites of leadership..the longer Locke went without doing this, the better it was for Ben. So clearly, Ben didn't want Locke to be able to go through with it, nor did he know or expect that Alpert had showed him a way around doing it (i.e. using Sawyer) - remember Ben's shock when Locke came stomping through the camp in MBTC?

EDIT: Also, this is largely what Ben meant (in the S4 finale) when he apologsied to Locke for 'making life so difficult for him'.

[Miss Austen]

Yes, you're correct in that I remember Richard Alpert told Locke what to do and told him about Sawyer. But surely in that case, Richard Alpert would also know that Locke wasn't The One? Because he'd aided and abetted Locke. Richard Alpert must really have a downer on Ben!

You may be correct that Ben didn't know Alpert would advise Locke; but Ben always seems to know EVERYTHING. To me, the only event that seemed to truly surprise Ben was when Keamy killed his daughter.

There is logic in all you say but I just can't believe Ben was that innocent and naive. Ben is one smart cookie and I can't believe Richard Alpert got one over on him re Locke. But we'll see in time I guess!

Locke also told Ben (after he came out of Jacob's cabin) that Jacob wanted the island turned; but we know Jacob didn't actually say this - it was Christian Shepherd or the form of Christian Shepherd working for someone else. Did Ben already know what the message would be? I can't remember how Locke came to enter the cabin alone. I really can't see Ben letting go of control so easily and I feel I'm right because in the very last segment of Season 4 there's Ben controlling and organising things (as usual) whereas Locke (we presume) is in the coffin.

I enjoy debating with you!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Miss Austen

Yes, you're correct in that I remember Richard Alpert told Locke what to do and told him about Sawyer. But surely in that case, Richard Alpert would also know that Locke wasn't The One? Because he'd aided and abetted Locke. Richard Alpert must really have a downer on Ben!

My understanding is that Alpert does believe that Locke is the one. Alpert is not concerned about how Locke killed his father, only that he had the will to see that it was done, one way or the other. I think this was good enough for Alpert in that the release of this weight around Locke's neck would enable him to "find your purpose".

Alpert has always been there to assist Locke (as has Abbadon and others it would seem) - this doesn't (in my mind) negate Locke's specialness or dampen his importance in the eyes of Alpert and the "natives"/island.

Indeed, Alpert seems to have gotten tired with Ben's "novelties". Personally I think Alpert's fickle, but that's my Ben side overriding my Locke side

You may be correct that Ben didn't know Alpert would advise Locke; but Ben always seems to know EVERYTHING. To me, the only event that seemed to truly surprise Ben was when Keamy killed his daughter.

He does, but Ben is not infallable and at this stage Ben was very much operating on bare bones. It was a stage where we saw him lose his cool for the first time - he was also unaware of other things such as Charlie swimming down to the Looking Glass (and previously Desmond's boat - "I want that boat!!"). We should also bare in mind that as clued-up as Ben is, Alpert is his mentor and aid..often these people know more than those whom they groom/look after. Just ask any PA

There is logic in all you say but I just can't believe Ben was that innocent and naive. Ben is one smart cookie and I can't believe Richard Alpert got one over on him re Locke. But we'll see in time I guess!

Ben is indeed smart, but Ben isn't all-knowing all of the time. Granted Ben wasn't surprised that Alpert had put Locke up to using Sawyer (his "what gave you that idea?" to Locke's suggestion that Ben wanted him to fail, was telling) - however Ben knew that if Locke killed his father (by hook or by crook) that his (Ben's) power would be usurped. Ben loves that island (perhaps too much)..there's no way (in my view) that Ben 'wanted' Locke to 'find his purpose'.

I could be wrong, but that's my genuine opinion.

Locke also told Ben (after he came out of Jacob's cabin) that Jacob wanted the island turned; but we know Jacob didn't actually say this - it was Christian Shepherd or the form of Christian Shepherd working for someone else. Did Ben already know what the message would be? I can't remember how Locke came to enter the cabin alone. I really can't see Ben letting go of control so easily and I feel I'm right because in the very last segment of Season 4 there's Ben controlling and organising things (as usual) whereas Locke (we presume) is in the coffin.

No, I don't think Ben did know what the message would be - he looked genuinely intrigued as to what Jacob had to say (although Ben may have known that moving the island could be one of 'Jacob's' responses).

Ben told Locke that he must enter the cabin on his own - Ben had virtually given up and passed the torch on to Locke - Hugo also didn't want to go in, and opted to eat candy on a log with Ben instead (who wouldn't!).

I know it's hard to believe but Ben was letting go at this stage - the execution of his daughter rocked him to the core. It was only Jacob's (or Christian's) instruction re: moving the island that galvanised Ben into one last heroic act. Remember, Jacob/Christian knew that only Ben would know 'how' to move the island. Therefore Ben knew that Jacob/Christian's instructions were specifically for Ben and not Locke..because as Ben said, Locke wouldn't know what to do and crucially the person who turns the wheel can never return. Jacob/Christian wouldn't want Locke to turn the wheel, even if he knew how, because this would mean banishing their 'chosen one'. Hence, it was this instruction (move the island) which galvanised Ben into shaking off his personal grief and deflation, to him turning the wheel and moving the island etc.

This makes sense to me, because it's perfectly logical for Ben to have given up his throne, only to be reawakened into one final act (the wheel).

That's not to say that Ben didn have or go onto have a plan..after all, his "I hope you're happy now, Jacob", seemed very much like a parting shot and a 'remember this moment' moment. But I sincerely believe that at this point, Ben had accepted his short-term fate.

Locke being in the coffin is 3 years after Ben turned the wheel - alot has happened in that time..including Ben reinvigorated in his quest to return to the island and fight off the rebel troops of Widmore and co

So, I understand where you're coming from, but I just think we need to look at it from a slightly different - and perhaps more sympathetic - angle. In that although Ben can be a swine, not everything he does is double-edged..least not immediately. After all, it wouldn't be prudent to not have a long-term plan (even if ones heart has accepted ones fate). Sawyer has taught us this. Hence why in some ways I think the pair have an underlying respect for one another..but that's neither here nor there at the moment.

I enjoy debating with you!

And me you

[Miss Austen]

Ok! Since you're more of a Ben expert than me I'll go with your take on things!

I can't wait to see what transpired on the island that Locke ended up in a coffin and Ben stepped back into his Mr Fixit role!