Kelvin Inman

[Blloydy]

Other or Dharma?

This occured to me after the eppisode, we know that Desmond isn't an Other, or Dharma, he is essentially a Lostie now. But what was Kelvin?

At first we all thought assumed was Dharma, but after the revelations - that the others purged (cleared out) dharma, I'm not so sure. It would seem that he was Dharma, but the others must have cleared them out a long time ago, I'm guessing (if Juliette is telling the truth) that it was more that 3 years ago anyway, because we saw Ethan in the real world when they went to get Juliette, which as she said was 3 years ago.

Anyway, if Kelvin was Dharma which was around way more than 3 years ago, I'm not sure when, the 60s? He couldn't have been down there for 40 years as we saw him with Sayid a while before the crash, and I'm sure Dharma would know that there had been a problem when the others took over, so they probably wouldn't send in replacements in fear of being attacked (unless they did and the others allowed this, to prevent the island from blowing up)

So was he just an Other pretending to be part of dharma, like Mikhail was? Desmond knew about 'the hostiles' as we heard him in live together die alone:
Desmond: Going to see the hostiles, are you?
Sayid: The what?
Desmond: You know what, ignorance is bliss. The boat's all yours, brother, for all the good it'll do you.

That was the same thing that Marvin called them, so Kelvin must have told him about them, I doubt there would be information at the hatch, or Locke or someone probably would have found it.. So he could have been an Other, who was sent to push the button, they wouldn't have sent down more others in the 3 years Des was there or have smaller shifts because then Des would be suspicious, and want to go where they were staying and then might work out what they had done to the real Dharma.

So what do you think, Other or Dharma?

[The Wizard]

i like ur thinking miss letterland, i like it a lot...

[Verix]

I like your thinking but i do think that Kelvin was a Dharama guy, though it doesn't make much sense really. I mean, why was Kelvin allowed to stay and why was he not purged?

Maybe he was an other and he was just waiting for one of the other 'others' to replace him. When no one came he hatched a plan to get Desmond to take over his duties... seems a tad long winded though.

I'm not sure, but for the moment i'm stil saying he's a dharma.

[Him]

Ah, now we're talking.

I'm of the opinion that they're one and the same - why on Earth would the Others who've been there for years be both experimenting, and recruiting?

[E Pluribus Unum]

I agree with Him. I think Dharma and the Others are one of the same....Technically.

Ok stay with me a moment. So Dharma come to the island, begin running routine tests - building radio towers, roads, and hatches with catchy names. After a while (or maybe straight away) they are confronted by a bunch of natives - hostiles (note: not the 'others'). Maybe they're truly savage (my guess) maybe not (less fun). These natives are extremely religious and are the founders of four-toe(pia) but there's something "special" with these 'hostiles' (or maybe they're controlling something special - that is now in control by the 'others' hence Klugh willing to die for it) something that Dharma want for themselves (maybe it is the key to saving us all?!)

But it's not that simple. Within Dharma there is a divide - those that want the 'hostiles' dead and others that don't (and Ben's possie is born). However, Ben is just a mere test-tube cleaner and holds no power over Dharma. So (most of) Dharma go to slaughter the hostiles - but Dharma have underestimated the 'hostiles' (enter smokey?) and *most* of Dharma are killed themselves. A few men survive - i.e. Ben and a few select 'others'.

That's where my theory ends - I'm not sure. I'm still basing this 'third group' on the feet we saw during season 2 when Jin and Eko were searching for Mike . They were just moving so strangely. I also think 'the others' wearing similar gear is something 'hostile' orientated - perhaps they aren't like us at all. As in they have no or poor senses except a heightened 'spatial awareness' (I think I'm using that right). Hence there ability to walk without leaving trails and their general sneakiness (of which 'the others' don't really seem to show).

After something that Murg said (re: Time Travel and Fate) it was something about how it's hard to believe that the universe can be so sentient and controlling of everything. And, since I'm not a fan of time travel or fate, I wonder - is it possible to mathematically calculate every outcome to the point of actually knowing what's going to happen and is the person who did this - Jacob (this 'great man' - presuming that's who Ben was referring to of course)

Sorry I kind of totally derailed the thread

[Blloydy]

Originally Posted by The Wizard,March 13, 2007 08:50 pm

i like ur thinking miss letterland, i like it a lot...

...I'll take that as a compliment

[Blloydy]

Originally Posted by Verix,March 13, 2007 09:17 pm

I like your thinking but i do think that Kelvin was a Dharama guy, though it doesn't make much sense really. I mean, why was Kelvin allowed to stay and why was he not purged?

I'm still not quite sure whether he was an other or Dharma. I thought that, if he was Dharma, the Others, or the hostiles - I'm now not even sure if the others are the hostiles - let him stay so that none of them had to stay down there and push the button.

Maybe he was an other and he was just waiting for one of the other 'others' to replace him. When no one came he hatched a plan to get Desmond to take over his duties... seems a tad long winded though.

That was my thoughts on it, but now that I think about it, all those times he was going outside to fix the boat, wouldn't he have gone to the others rather that try and escape?

I'm not sure, but for the moment i'm stil saying he's a dharma.

I'm thinking he was Dharma too now, I hadn't thought about the whole boat thing, and it wouldn't really make sence for him to be escaping if he was an other, unless he was down there as punishment be the others.. Hmm, sorry ideas keep popping up while I'm writing

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by E PLURIBUS UNUM,March 13, 2007 10:11 pm

And, since I'm not a fan of time travel or fate, I wonder - is it possible to mathematically calculate every outcome to the point of actually knowing what's going to happen and is the person who did this - Jacob (this 'great man' - presuming that's who Ben was referring to of course)

There's a thought. Theoretically, I believe it is feasible: you can predict what side a coin is going to land on if you can factor in every single variable, including height from which it's dropped, weight of the coin, surface it lands on, angle of dropping, air resistance, etc, though of course it's nearly impossible to accurately calculate all of these... at present. And theoretically I don't see why that can't be expanded to cover, essentially, the entirely universe - even what a person's going to think about at 9.13pm based on variables such as mood and what's going on in their life and the weather and basically just about everything.

[Blloydy]

Originally Posted by Him,March 13, 2007 09:26 pm

Ah, now we're talking.

I'm of the opinion that they're one and the same - why on Earth would the Others who've been there for years be both experimenting, and recruiting?

I'm not sure what you mean, your saying the others and Dharma were the same thing - I get that part. But you say why would the others be experimenting ect.. I don't think they were, it was Dharma doing that, and the Others took over, cleared them out..

Sorry, it's probably just me having missed something

[Murgatroyd]

Also, the term hostiles kind of supports their being a break-off group from Dharma - Other suggests the totally unknown, but 'hostiles' implied hostility towards something about the functioning of Dharma.

[Blloydy]

Originally Posted by E PLURIBUS UNUM,March 13, 2007 10:11 pm

I agree with Him. I think Dharma and the Others are one of the same....Technically.

Ok stay with me a moment. So Dharma come to the island, begin running routine tests - building radio towers, roads, and hatches with catchy names. After a while (or maybe straight away) they are confronted by a bunch of natives - hostiles (note: not the 'others'). Maybe they're truly savage (my guess) maybe not (less fun). These natives are extremely religious and are the founders of four-toe(pia)  but there's something "special" with these 'hostiles' (or maybe they're controlling something special - that is now in control by the 'others' hence Klugh willing to die for it) something that Dharma want for themselves (maybe it is the key to saving us all?!)

Maybe the BS is the special object? It's certainly very powerful if in the wrong hands..

But it's not that simple. Within Dharma there is a divide - those that want the 'hostiles' dead and others that don't (and Ben's possie is born). However, Ben is just a mere test-tube cleaner and holds no power over Dharma. So (most of) Dharma go to slaughter the hostiles - but Dharma have underestimated the 'hostiles' (enter smokey?) and *most* of Dharma are killed themselves. A few men survive - i.e. Ben* and a few select 'others'.

That's where my theory ends - I'm not sure. I'm still basing this 'third group' on the feet we saw during season 2 when Jin and Eko were searching for Mike* . They were just moving so strangely. I also think 'the others' wearing similar gear is something 'hostile' orientated - perhaps they aren't like us at all. As in they have no or poor senses except a heightened 'spatial awareness' (I think I'm using that right). Hence there ability to walk without leaving trails and their general sneakiness (of which 'the others' don't really seem to show).

The only problem that I have with this is that we saw the teddy bear.. Didn't we see one of the children with it at the start? Which would make the others and the hostiles the same people. Although, maybe we didn't see the bear at the start - I'm not sure

After something that Murg said (re: Time Travel and Fate) it was something about how it's hard to believe that the universe can be so sentient and controlling of everything. And, since I'm not a fan of time travel or fate, I wonder - is it possible to mathematically calculate every outcome to the point of actually knowing what's going to happen and is the person who did this - Jacob (this 'great man' - presuming that's who Ben was referring to of course)

I like your theory, it's quite interesting and definitely plausible.. Don't really know what else to say

Sorry I kind of totally derailed the thread*

You didn't de-rail it, you were explaining why you though they were the same

[Blloydy]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,March 14, 2007 08:20 pm

Also, the term hostiles kind of supports their being a break-off group from Dharma - Other suggests the totally unknown, but 'hostiles' implied hostility towards something about the functioning of Dharma.

I don't know, the different names symoblise different things, like they were originally called the other because that's what Danielle called them, and they were uinknown to her, according to her, she had never even seen them and the Losties adopted this name for them because they hadn't seen them and knew nothing about them. But Dharma, obviuosly call them the hostiles, that's what Des calls them - or I assume that, if they are infact the same people, if not, then I'm guessing Des doesn't know about the others we know - So dharma, when 'purged' by them would have seen them as hostile, not mysterious others. Hence the different names.

[Murgatroyd]

But what I'm saying is that the term 'hostile' slightly implies a breakaway group from Dharma, because it can be used in such phrases as 'hostile to the cause' - it needn't just mean a physical hostility, but also a hostility towards theories and motivations, suggesting that the Others are intrinsically opposed to something fundamental about Dharma's operations as opposed to their apparently motiveless physical hostility towards the much less homogenous Losties.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,March 14, 2007 08:19 pm

There's a thought. Theoretically, I believe it is feasible: you can predict what side a coin is going to land on if you can factor in every single variable, including height from which it's dropped, weight of the coin, surface it lands on, angle of dropping, air resistance, etc, though of course it's nearly impossible to accurately calculate all of these... at present. And theoretically I don't see why that can't be expanded to cover, essentially, the entirely universe - even what a person's going to think about at 9.13pm based on variables such as mood and what's going on in their life and the weather and basically just about everything.

Well, I did blatantly steal it from you on another thread But yes I agree. It's plausible, certainly more so than out-right time travel. And to apply it to Desmond? Maybe the 'others' have created a (for want of a better term) 'super computer' that broadcasts the calculation capabilities - and 'the list' is a list of those who are able to 'understand' the transmission...?

Also, the term hostiles kind of supports their being a break-off group from Dharma - Other suggests the totally unknown, but 'hostiles' implied hostility towards something about the functioning of Dharma.

True. Although it is possible that the 'hostiles' were just that - hostile. Every action they took was as a direct attack on Dharma.

However, didn't Patchy say something like "They were already on the island, a long long time before we were?"

Which kind of designates a minimum of 2 groups (to begin with) possibly 3 [now – Dharma, Others and ‘Hostiles’].