Ana

[haelle03]

Originally Posted by The_abbott,February 09, 2007 01:32 pm

its called healthy debating!!

I didnt say they were bad, i just said sometimes there are so long. i do like to read them.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,February 09, 2007 02:15 pm

While her being sorry about what she did may make her eligable for forgiveness, it doesn't change the fact that she made a terrible and justifiably criticised 'leadership' decision in the first place, which I believe was the issue under discussion....

Michael is responsible for having used the gun to murder two people. Ana Lucia is responsible for having knowingly and willingly handed over the gun and combination to a man she believed was going to use that weapon and information to commit murder. There's no conflict of interest there: they both have their distinct parts to play in what happened. And Ana Lucia's allowed to be simultaneously rubbish at nannying and at attempting to let people have their own way, actually. She's just more or less universally awful at making decisions involving other people, which is why her actions had an astonishing tendency to end in people's being done in.

Re. Mike's 'bullying' Ana - I believe he spent no more than thirty seconds asking her for the gun, not once raising his voice, using threatening language or suggesting that anything bad would happen to her if she refused to give him what he wanted. A transcript tells me that all he said was 'Then let me do it. They're animals. I've seen these people, and they are animals. They took my son, right out of my hands, they took my son, and... I'll do it. Give me the gun. I'll kill him.' He asked for the gun twice. That's not a strikingly effective or pressurised attempt at persuasion. The trouble is that Ana Lucia needed precious little in the way of persuading.

The means of not protecting him that Ana was presented with was synonymous with enabling his murder. To protect him, what she had to do was not enable him to be murdered. It didn't involve preventing violence against the man, which is what I'd deem protection: it involved failing to enable violence against him. Therefore I'd say what Ana Lucia did regarding Ben falls much more readily into the category of doing harm than it does into the category of failing to prevent harm.

But this was a good leadership decision, because she had realised that she couldnt control everyone..she had realised that she had to let go and if need be hope that people make their own right choices. Yes, in a normal environment her actions would be very wrong..but we are all human and i think that after all shed been through both as a leader and as a person, she had to let go..she just had to let Mike make his own mind up, just as she had come to make her own mind up. Her job was not to control everyone..it was not to be an island cop..because if we recall she handed her badge in before she crashed on the island. She reaised that sometimes we have to do wrong things with good intensions. She didnt want Ben dead..not really..all she wanted was for the mahem to stop..she had enough..you could see in her eyes that she was uneasy about giving him the gun but i still detected both hope and defeatism there.

Yes, i can see where you;re coming from in regards to Mike and Ana having seperate responsibilities..but from her end she was hopeful tha Mike would make the same realisation that she had - that revenge is not the answer. We also have to bear in mind the kid..that being Walt..now she knows what its like to lose a child and so she most likely identified with Mikes anger over the possibilitiy that Benry was involved in his kidnapping - so from her point of view she had to sit on the fence..and thats what she did..she didnt expressly want Ben dead and she didnt withold the gun from Mike..she just played it neutral and theres nothing wrong with that really...not in this situation.

Yeah but the thing is Murg, there are other types of bullying then just verbal or physical..Mike KNEW that Ana would identify with his situation (re Walt) and so he by pestering her he was effectively bullying the poor woman. He also threw a bit of reverse psychology her way by (as you're quote reads) referring back to the whole "they're animals" thing..the very thing that she told him in 2xwhatever. So he knew how ot get at her without raising suspiscion. He knew which buttons to press and boy did he press them. Ana had no duty to Ben..she had saved his life once before, but after Mike had mentally tortured her there was nothing left..her resistence had gone..excuse her for wanting a moment to enjoy her redemption

You say that Ana 'enabled' Bens (false) execution, but then what did you want her to do...have Mike start barkng at her and attempt to strangle her like ben did?? She's a woman..yes she strong and brave, but she is still vunerable and maybe she was also a little scared..scared of what Mike would do if she didnt comply or scared of the thought of Walts abducter getting away with it scot-free. Remember, she promised the little girl that she'd get her home to her mother..i think she felt they duty to at least enable Mike to possibly help his own son by threatening Ben with the gun.

[Murgatroyd]

But this was a good leadership decision, because she had realised that she couldnt control everyone..she had realised that she had to let go and if need be hope that people make their own right choices.

Begging your pardon, but it was a decision that led to the deaths of two people and all the repercussions that followed on from that, including the kidnappings. I'm aware that Ana didn't know that those precise events were going to be the upshot of her choosing to hand over a gun to a vengence-filled maniac who'd just professed a desire to murder someone... but when you hand over guns to vengence-filled maniacs who've just professed a desire to murder someone, you can't expect much in the way of good to come of it really. Had it gone the way she'd expected it to go, it would've resulted in a dead man and the creation of a murderer. Either way, I question in what sense it was a good decision.

Yes, in a normal environment her actions would be very wrong....

I'm not sure how that specific environment renders arming professed murderers something other than wrong....

but we are all human and i think that after all shed been through both as a leader and as a person, she had to let go..she just had to let Mike make his own mind up, just as she had come to make her own mind up. Her job was not to control everyone..it was not to be an island cop..because if we recall she handed her badge in before she crashed on the island. She reaised that sometimes we have to do wrong things with good intensions. She didnt want Ben dead..not really..all she wanted was for the mahem to stop..she had enough..you could see in her eyes that she was uneasy about giving him the gun but i still detected both hope and defeatism there.

Yes, i can see where you;re coming from in regards to Mike and Ana having seperate responsibilities..but from her end she was hopeful tha Mike would make the same realisation that she had - that revenge is not the answer. We also have to bear in mind the kid..that being Walt..now she knows what its like to lose a child and so she most likely identified with Mikes anger over the possibilitiy that Benry was involved in his kidnapping - so from her point of view she had to sit on the fence..and thats what she did..she didnt expressly want Ben dead and she didnt withold the gun from Mike..she just played it neutral and theres nothing wrong with that really...not in this situation.

As I said before, her choosing not to hand over the gun, which would've been just as much an exercise in free will on her part, would have robbed Michael only of his ability to carry out the murder he said he was going to carry out by those particular means and at that particular time - an ability that he could not, in fact, have possessed without Ana Lucia's intervention. She wasn't closing an open avenue to him: she was opening a closed one. And she certainly wasn't sitting on the fence. She provided him with a means he was not otherwise free to employ. If it was a test, it was bound to be a deadly one: he'd expressed the motive and she was providing him with the opportunity. If you're saying she's was providing him with the opportunity in order that he might enjoy the ultimate challenge in resisting temptation, I'd have to call that immensely irresponsible. Did Michael look much like a man capable of resisting temptation in favour of rationality?

Had she, in fact, taken a gun off him after he'd expressed an intent to use it - which would've been curtailing his freedom in a sense - I would've considered that a good thing.

Also, I think she did want Ben dead. She certainly can't have wanted him alive. And as I've said, arming professed murderers isn't generally considered a one-way ticket out of mayhem.

Yeah but the thing is Murg, there are other types of bullying then just verbal or physical..Mike KNEW that Ana would identify with his situation (re Walt) and so he by pestering her he was effectively bullying the poor woman. He also threw a bit of reverse psychology her way by (as you're quote reads) referring back to the whole "they're animals" thing..the very thing that she told him in 2xwhatever. So he knew how ot get at her without raising suspiscion. He knew which buttons to press and boy did he press them. Ana had no duty to Ben..she had saved his life once before, but after Mike had mentally tortured her there was nothing left..her resistence had gone..excuse her for wanting a moment to enjoy her redemption

What redemption? I posted about this a couple of pages back - deciding not to commit abhorrent behaviour does not redeem a murderer... changing your mind about killing a man at the last minute is only perversely akin to saving a life. Regretting and atoning for previous decisions is a means to redemption, not merely choosing not to make the same mistake again.

Anyway, about the bullying. It was thirty seconds of persuasion... yes, it was designed to push her buttons (though I wouldn't say consciously so - he doesn't know she lost a pregnancy), but folk really need to hold out against arming murderers for longer than thirty non-threatening seconds.

You say that Ana 'enabled' Bens (false) execution, but then what did you want her to do...have Mike start barkng at her and attempt to strangle her like ben did?? She's a woman..yes she strong and brave, but she is still vunerable and maybe she was also a little scared..scared of what Mike would do if she didnt comply or scared of the thought of Walts abducter getting away with it scot-free. Remember, she promised the little girl that she'd get her home to her mother..i think she felt they duty to at least enable Mike to possibly help his own son by threatening Ben with the gun.

Michael was not barking and he was not threatening in his manner, and she was the one with the gun and the expert knowledge of how to use it. What could he have done exactly? She held all the trump cards, and she lost them when she armed Michael. I don't believe she was at any point scared of him. Otherwise she wouldn't have given him the means to murder her.

Nor did she think she was enabling Michael to merely threaten Ben - that's a new line of argument from you. He'd expressed an intent to murder. To quietly think to yourself 'Ah, it'll be all right - really Michael only wants to wave the gun in Henry's face till he gives the boy back' would've been an alarmingly blase way of thinking, and one I'm convinced did not even pass through Ana Lucia's head.

By the way, I sympathise with those who think these posts are a little long... they are! Pretty circular as well sometimes. I'm not cutting them down or anything. I'm just saying I don't blame you for not wanting to read them all.

[D-Roc]

But this was a good leadership decision, because she had realised that she couldnt control everyone..she had realised that she had to let go and if need be hope that people make their own right choices.

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Begging your pardon, but it was a decision that led to the deaths of two people and all the repercussions that followed on from that, including the kidnappings. I'm aware that Ana didn't know that those precise events were going to be the upshot of her choosing to hand over a gun to a vengence-filled maniac who'd just professed a desire to murder someone... but when you hand over guns to vengence-filled maniacs who've just professed a desire to murder someone, you can't expect much in the way of good to come of it really. Had it gone the way she'd expected it to go, it would've resulted in a dead man and the creation of a murderer. Either way, I question in what sense it was a good decision.

You said yourself that she wasnt to know the chain of events that were about to unfold. Perhaps a better judgement of the situation would've been ideal..but then she had just been though an ordeal and she had realised that the wild is no place for a 'Nanny State'.

You make an interesting point about had it gone the way she 'expected' it to go..but then, expectations and desires are often 2 different things. I dont think she really wanted Benry dead - merely, she didnt feel it was any longer her place or her right to nanny everyone.

Yes, in a normal environment her actions would be very wrong....

I'm not sure how that specific environment renders arming professed murderers something other than wrong....

Well it doesnt..but it certainly lessens the crime imo. She experienced so many awful things on that island that she wasnt thinking straight - perhaps she was also in shock at reaching redemption? this may have thrown her off gaurd a little and impacted on her decision to let Mike do whatever Mike said he wanted to do.. I just think cnotext is important..as you probably know

but we are all human and i think that after all shed been through both as a leader and as a person, she had to let go..she just had to let Mike make his own mind up, just as she had come to make her own mind up. Her job was not to control everyone..it was not to be an island cop..because if we recall she handed her badge in before she crashed on the island. She reaised that sometimes we have to do wrong things with good intensions. She didnt want Ben dead..not really..all she wanted was for the mahem to stop..she had enough..you could see in her eyes that she was uneasy about giving him the gun but i still detected both hope and defeatism there.

Yes, i can see where you;re coming from in regards to Mike and Ana having seperate responsibilities..but from her end she was hopeful tha Mike would make the same realisation that she had - that revenge is not the answer. We also have to bear in mind the kid..that being Walt..now she knows what its like to lose a child and so she most likely identified with Mikes anger over the possibilitiy that Benry was involved in his kidnapping - so from her point of view she had to sit on the fence..and thats what she did..she didnt expressly want Ben dead and she didnt withold the gun from Mike..she just played it neutral and theres nothing wrong with that really...not in this situation.

As I said before, her choosing not to hand over the gun, which would've been just as much an exercise in free will on her part, would have robbed Michael only of his ability to carry out the murder he said he was going to carry out by those particular means and at that particular time - an ability that he could not, in fact, have possessed without Ana Lucia's intervention.

So blame fate then..at the end of the day if the said murderer (Mike) isnt to blame then fate is more to blame than Ana, imo

She wasn't closing an open avenue to him: she was opening a closed one. And she certainly wasn't sitting on the fence. She provided him with a means he was not otherwise free to employ. If it was a test, it was bound to be a deadly one: he'd expressed the motive and she was providing him with the opportunity. If you're saying she's was providing him with the opportunity in order that he might enjoy the ultimate challenge in resisting temptation, I'd have to call that immensely irresponsible. Did Michael look much like a man capable of resisting temptation in favour of rationality?

Good post, but i still think that she was merely an innocent tool to enable Mikes plan to unfold. She wasnt proving Mike with an opportunity that wasnt already there - he would've got into that room somehow (from her point of view)..and it might have resulted in her having to defend herself and kill him. because she perhaps thought that he was in such a state thatif she didnt give him the gun, the he'd attack her, resulting in bloodshed that way. So fate (or Mike however you view it) basically consigned her to making a decsion that would result in bad things..it's not her fault, sometimes fate just does that. It doesnt prevent her redemption from being complete, imo.

Also, I think she did want Ben dead. She certainly can't have wanted him alive. And as I've said, arming professed murderers isn't generally considered a one-way ticket out of mayhem.

I think she was indifferent, myself. It is possible to neither want someone alive nor particularly want them dead. And lets say she didn want the man dead - im pretty sure that most women who get attacked by a man would want that man dead..it's understandable that she'd want benry dead after he tried to kill her. Of course Ben wasnt thinking straight at this juncture.

Yeah but the thing is Murg, there are other types of bullying then just verbal or physical..Mike KNEW that Ana would identify with his situation (re Walt) and so he by pestering her he was effectively bullying the poor woman. He also threw a bit of reverse psychology her way by (as you're quote reads) referring back to the whole "they're animals" thing..the very thing that she told him in 2xwhatever. So he knew how ot get at her without raising suspiscion. He knew which buttons to press and boy did he press them. Ana had no duty to Ben..she had saved his life once before, but after Mike had mentally tortured her there was nothing left..her resistence had gone..excuse her for wanting a moment to enjoy her redemption

What redemption? I posted about this a couple of pages back - deciding not to commit abhorrent behaviour does not redeem a murderer...

No but being truely sorry for ones sins and repenting..well, that goes along way in m opinion. For her, this was a major step..a giant leap..and one small step backwards (in giving Mike the gun) doesnt negate her redemption, imo

Anyway, about the bullying. It was thirty seconds of persuasion... yes, it was designed to push her buttons (though I wouldn't say consciously so - he doesn't know she lost a pregnancy), but folk really need to hold out against arming murderers for longer than thirty non-threatening seconds.

I think in our world it was 30 seconds..but in actual fact that scene was probably more an edited illustration of the type of persuasion that actually happened, had the episode been 120 minutes long. They have to condense these things for sake of tv

You say that Ana 'enabled' Bens (false) execution, but then what did you want her to do...have Mike start barkng at her and attempt to strangle her like ben did?? She's a woman..yes she strong and brave, but she is still vunerable and maybe she was also a little scared..scared of what Mike would do if she didnt comply or scared of the thought of Walts abducter getting away with it scot-free. Remember, she promised the little girl that she'd get her home to her mother..i think she felt they duty to at least enable Mike to possibly help his own son by threatening Ben with the gun.

Michael was not barking and he was not threatening in his manner, and she was the one with the gun and the expert knowledge of how to use it. What could he have done exactly? She held all the trump cards, and she lost them when she armed Michael. I don't believe she was at any point scared of him. Otherwise she wouldn't have given him the means to murder her.

But this was not the level headed Mike that she knew from the other side of the island - this was a highly distressed and skewed Michael who was now in front of her..this no doubt must have at least worried her a little. Yes, she was the one with the gun..but thats the point - she no longer wanted the gun..she no 'couldnt do it anymore'..she just wanted rid of the gun and perhaps this is more the reason why she gave it to him (because she wanted rid of it) and not because she wanted Bery dead. Perhaps she was scared of the responsibility of denying Mike access..perhaps her head was so crowded that she just wanted it all to stop and to get the pestering manout of her hair so she could work out what had happened to her and move on with her new life..

Nor did she think she was enabling Michael to merely threaten Ben - that's a new line of argument from you. He'd expressed an intent to murder. To quietly think to yourself 'Ah, it'll be all right - really Michael only wants to wave the gun in Henry's face till he gives the boy back' would've been an alarmingly blase way of thinking, and one I'm convinced did not even pass through Ana Lucia's head.

well why not? I mean Sayid expressed the desire to only question henry..and yet he tried to kill him. So why is not possible that she thought Mikes desire to kill Henry would morph into a desire to simply question or threaten him..

[Murgatroyd]

You said yourself that she wasnt to know the chain of events that were about to unfold. Perhaps a better judgement of the situation would've been ideal..but then she had just been though an ordeal and she had realised that the wild is no place for a 'Nanny State'.

You make an interesting point about had it gone the way she 'expected' it to go..but then, expectations and desires are often 2 different things. I dont think she really wanted Benry dead - merely, she didnt feel it was any longer her place or her right to nanny everyone.

Declining to equip people with one of several potential means to commit murder does not in my view equate to the imposition of a nanny state, but to each his own. You don't have to submit to outrageous requests in order to preserve free will. Maintaining the status quo would've meant not giving Michael what he'd asked for: Michael would've retained the desire to commit murder and he still wouldn't have had the means, as was the case before Ana took any decision. Ana chose instead to impose her decision on him by equipping him to carry out murder. That's not nannying. That's providing encouragement.

Well it doesnt..but it certainly lessens the crime imo. She experienced so many awful things on that island that she wasnt thinking straight - perhaps she was also in shock at reaching redemption? this may have thrown her off gaurd a little and impacted on her decision to let Mike do whatever Mike said he wanted to do..  I just think cnotext is important..as you probably know

Yeah, that's about the only thing I'll own - the context meant that nobody involved in the decision was thinking straight. As I think I've said in the past, that makes the crime more likely to happen and throws in the possibility of diminished responsibility, but it doesn't make any of the actual deeds themselves less heinous and I don't think there was sufficient derangement in the case (as I generally think there is with Rousseau, for example) to exonerate any of the parties involved.

And I don't think she was in shock at reaching redemption. On the grounds that, you know, she hadn't.

So blame fate then..at the end of the day if the said murderer (Mike) isnt to blame then fate is more to blame than Ana, imo

If you're using fate as a synonym for Ana Lucia's and Michael's both having taken conscious decisions, fine. If you're using it as a replacement for the conscious agency of these two people, then no... if it takes the decision out of Ana Lucia's hands it takes it out of everybody's and then there's no point in debating the morality of any of these actions at all.

Good post, but i still think that she was merely an innocent tool to enable Mikes plan to unfold. She wasnt proving Mike with an opportunity that wasnt already there - he would've got into that room somehow (from her point of view)..and it might have resulted in her having to defend herself and kill him. because she perhaps thought that he was in such a state thatif she didnt give him the gun, the he'd attack her, resulting in bloodshed that way. So fate (or Mike however you view it) basically consigned her to making a decsion that would result in bad things..it's not her fault, sometimes fate just does that. It doesnt prevent her redemption from being complete, imo.

Fate: the new Wild. The fact of the matter is that she *was* providing him with an opportunity that wasn't there. He did not have the opportunity to get into Ben's cell and murder him with the gun that Ana Lucia was holding without her giving him the gun and the combination. If Ana Lucia was genuinely concerned that Michael was going to get into that room in a way that would cause harm to her, all she had to do was hold him at gunpoint, back out of the hatch and get help, thereby genuinely taking the bulk of the decision making out of her hands. And I saw no fear in her face when she handed over the gun: I saw nothing but resignation and something akin to boredom. I don't think she much cared what she was doing, but I'm fairly sure she wasn't doing it with a view to self-protection.

I think she was indifferent, myself. It is possible to neither want someone alive nor particularly want them dead.

She could've been indifferent prior to her giving Michael the gun, an action that demonstrated at the very least a total disregard for Ben's continued existence... and more than a lack of interest in keeping him alive, because not acting would've been sufficient to ensure that at that specific time.

And lets say she didn want the man dead - im pretty sure that most women who get attacked by a man would want that man dead..it's understandable that she'd want benry dead after he tried to kill her. Of course Ben wasnt thinking straight at this juncture.

I'm sure murderous revenge is a disturbingly common feeling, yes, which is why we all hope that people with the benefit of distance from the situation continue to condemn lest it become sanctioned. Even Ana Lucia had in some sense appeared to recognise that killing Ben was not a good idea... which, in my view, makes her more culpable when she reneged on her own conscience and enabled his killing to go ahead regardless.

No but being truely sorry for ones sins and repenting..well, that goes along way in m opinion. For her, this was a major step..a giant leap..and one small step backwards (in giving Mike the gun) doesnt negate her
redemption, imo

All I can say is that her character must've been at the height of degradation if merely deciding she's too tired to commit another murder is a massive step forward....

I think in our world it was 30 seconds..but in actual fact that scene was probably more an edited illustration of the type of persuasion that actually happened, had the episode been 120 minutes long. They have to condense these things for sake of tv

Hmmm. Personally I think we have to go on the evidence in front of us and not necessarily assume every 30 seconds in the Lost universe equates to several hours in real life, but there you go.

But this was not the level headed Mike that she knew from the other side of the island - this was a highly distressed and skewed Michael who was now in front of her..this no doubt must have at least worried her a little. Yes, she was the one with the gun..but thats the point - she no longer wanted the gun..she no 'couldnt do it anymore'..she just wanted rid of the gun and perhaps this is more the reason why she gave it to him (because she wanted rid of it) and not because she wanted Bery dead. Perhaps she was scared of the responsibility of denying Mike access..perhaps her head was so crowded that she just wanted it all to stop and to get the pestering manout of her hair so she could work out what had happened to her and move on with her new life..

See above. I saw no fear... only unbotheredness and resignation, which in this context equates to wanting Ben dead more than wanting to take the lesser action that would've kept him alive at least for the time being. And bully for her that she was happy to move on with her new life knowing (and I'm aware this isn't the version that played out, but in her head) the last action in her old one was to equip an unarmed man's murderer.

well why not? I mean Sayid expressed the desire to only question henry..and yet he tried to kill him. So why is not possible that she thought Mikes desire to kill Henry would morph into a desire to simply question or threaten him..

So because Sayid lied, she could assume Michael was lying too? And Sayid's lie went the opposite way anyway - to prevent a man from questioning a suspect because you believe he's actually going to kill him is fine. I've no problem with that whatsoever. But to act on the completely unfounded assumption that an expressed desire to kill might possibly commute into a mere desire to threaten is utterly deadly and unbelievably irresponsible. For all her ability to make extremely foolish decisions and for reasons as extreme as a desire for murderous revenge, I can't believe precisely that of Ana Lucia.