Ana

[Audio Pineapple]

It's just that there aren't many of them on here lol.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by E PLURIBUS UNUM,January 29, 2007 06:32 pm

EDIT: Toby, you really don't have a bad word to say about anyone do you?

Never! I dont like to think about the negatives, because then I start to notice them. Whats the point?

And most negativity is made up on the spot by people who want to look clever and in-depth... :P

Cheers for noticing that E

Back to lovin ana:

Ana seems to also have multiple personas, as if she tries to show different things to people. WoW, that gives her an extra dimension! 3 suck! lets have 6 with ana! So, to Jack shes miss nicety. to sawyer it was pure love vs. hate, to eko this wierd respect thing, the list goes on!

And her journey, from no pity, no guilt, because she was doing the right thing (inspiration from sayid) to pitying Ben, to wanting not to kill him. She finsished that journey, and had probably one of the most shocking deaths to the viewer, bar Libby.

More if you want it

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Audio Pineapple,January 30, 2007 05:31 pm

*hugs all Sayid fans*

*hugs all sayid fans as well* gotta love that Driftwood Gen -U- iNE I raq ie! Like ana-lucis in many respects, tortured inside but so much more than that, so much of a bright side.

[Kiowa Warrior]

Ana was a bad character and I didn't like her. The only two occassions when I didn't want to throw her in the pit she dug was when she talked to Ben instead of giving him a good kicking, and when she stopped Sayid from shooting him. I can see why people argue that she redeemed herself at the end by refusing to shoot Ben at point blank range, but the fact is she didn't really: she just didn't have the stomach to perform the murder herself, but was more than willing to encourage and give someone else the tools to do so instead, which is not learning one's lesson at all in my view.

I also got fed up of her constant bad manners and sharp way of treating people. I don't blame her for shooting Shannon since I do believe that that was a terrible accident that she genuinely did feel remorse for, but her treatment of people in general was just too violent and unneccessary for me to form a liking for her.

[b-r-a-d]

lol its quite funny reading these messages with people talking about the characters as if they are real!

[Cavegirl]

Bad character but I liked her anyway. Her badness was her best quality. Nathan went to the bathroom - bam! Bet he never saw that coming.

[haelle03]

[Audio Pineapple]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior,January 30, 2007 08:41 pm

Ana was a bad character and I didn't like her. The only two occassions when I didn't want to throw her in the pit she dug was when she talked to Ben instead of giving him a good kicking, and when she stopped Sayid from shooting him. I can see why people argue that she redeemed herself at the end by refusing to shoot Ben at point blank range, but the fact is she didn't really: she just didn't have the stomach to perform the murder herself, but was more than willing to encourage and give someone else the tools to do so instead, which is not learning one's lesson at all in my view.

I also got fed up of her constant bad manners and sharp way of treating people. I don't blame her for shooting Shannon since I do believe that that was a terrible accident that she genuinely did feel remorse for, but her treatment of people in general was just too violent and unneccessary for me to form a liking for her.

*Has thought*

Maybe, if everything happens for a reason, that was why she died, because she didn't reform herself properly.

Or just because Michael wanted to get Walt back - either works really

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by Toby,January 30, 2007 08:24 pm

Never! I dont like to think about the negatives, because then I start to notice them. Whats the point?

And most negativity is made up on the spot by people who want to look clever and in-depth... :P

Cheers for noticing that E

lol, no it's refreshing. There are many 'factions' on this forum (which is a good thing as it makes for interesting debates) but it's nice to have someone supporting everyone...

And it's my job to notice....No wait..

Back on topic. For me, a character doesn't have to be 'good' to be liked, maybe I'm too naive or maybe a little like Toby in the way that, I pretty much like all the characters (pending Paulo and Nikki) in some way. Now, when I think about Ana - I ask myself, was she meant to be like this? Well, the writers wrote her this way to be hated. Now did she do that well? Hell yeah, and at the end I did feel sorry for her (hence, good writing - and proof that I did 'like' her) but I also agree she did NOT redeem herself, in fact I may have had more respect for her had she killed Ben herself, instead of (in not so many words) 'letting' Mike do her dirty work (of course, it was all a dirty plan by Mike - but that's irrelevent). Ironically if she had killed Ben she would have still been alive, so perhaps letting Ben live was, in 'Gods' eyes the IMMORAL thing to do...

Or, maybe not..

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by Audio Pineapple,January 31, 2007 11:00 am

*Has thought*

Maybe, if everything happens for a reason, that was why she died, because she didn't reform herself properly.

Or just because Michael wanted to get Walt back - either works really

Or maybe she died because her one season contract had come to an end


But yeah I really don't think she reformed herself properly...she said to Mike 'I couldn't even shoot (or it may have been 'kill') him,' and I just wonder why the 'even' was added to that sentance. It suggests to me that she really did want to shoot him, and that a bullet through the head was the most humane way of doing away with him that Ana was thinking of. It's like when someone says 'I couldn't even climb the stairs without feeling out of breath' meaning that that activity comes so naturally to them that they are surprised when they can no longer do it....that's the kind of mentality I think Ana had - that shooting someone or being violent towards them was second nature to her, and so she was surprised when that natural desire left her and she regretted it.

And that's why I don't like her.

If she didn't have such a burning desire to murder someone she would never have given the gun to Mike, and Mike wouldn't have been able to use it on her. Of course Mike is very very guilty of her murder, especially since he committed it of his own accord, but Ana played a significant part in bringing about her untimely demise as well.

[*SP*]

I appreciate where you're coming from regarding Ana saying 'I couldn't even shoot him. But I don't think this shows she had no remorse. I think in the short time we knew her, she showed more remorse and self awareness than any other character who we knew to have done 'wrong'. She seemed to me to be learning about her self, her motives and her motivations, and going through a journey of self exploration. When she lost the baby there would have been an element of irrationality about her reaction but I think she possibly displayed learned behaviour too. After seeking her revenge by killing Jason though, she probably thought she should feel 'happier' for want of a better word. I think it confused her, both because knowing he was dead didn't ease her pain as she'd expected, and also because she felt guilt. Guilt she hadn't anticipated as she'd felt justified at the time.

I think, despite some of her aggressive behaviour when we first saw her (which can be explained by the fear she, Libby et al had about the others), Ana showed that she was both emotionally vunerable and compassionate. She'd come a long way even before the crash and showed that she was ready to face her past actions when she called her mother from the airport. The only reason she killed Shannon was self preservation and trying to protect her fellow survivors. Her words just before Michael shot her didn't convey regret at not being able to shoot Ben, imo, rather that she realised this wasn't something she felt she was capable of any longer or even wanted to do, and then being left confused and tired, seeking clarity about who she really was. As a police officer she'd previously had to call the shots but turning her back on violence and relinquishing all control over the Ben situation showed she felt defeated. She'd tried to treat Ben with respect and really talk to him and then knew he'd lied to her and tried to strangle her. So giving the gun to Michael merely displayed defeatism rather than a desire to have Ben killed by proxy.

I know I'm probably fighting a losing battle with the Ana critics but hey, life'd be boring if we all agreed. And I'm sure Roco'll back me up fighting Ana's corner when he returns!

Sorry for the ramble!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,January 30, 2007 04:54 pm

And I don't buy the idea that a character who declared herself uncapable of committing murder and then immediately became an accessory to one has in any sense redeemed herself, so I don't think she wound up converted to any real sense of goodness either.

*ahem* >>"We are all saved in different ways" ..i think she did redeem herself..handing the gun to Mike was handing over responbsibility..she couldnt kill the man..she had lost the lust for revenge and she had learnt..she had also learned not to nanny everyone. A trait, may i add, that people crucfied her for whilst leading Bernards carcus to safety (i guess she just cannot win, huh? :P )

Re: her fiestyness..well imo for a woman who has been through what she went through, being fiesty is often a defence mechanism..and once you peel back the layers her fiestyness is quite admirable really. She's a credit to us all and we should all be proud that they have given us a leading lady of the kind we dont see much of on telly these days.

imo

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by *SP*,January 31, 2007 11:22 pm

I appreciate where you're coming from regarding Ana saying 'I couldn't even shoot him. But I don't think this shows she had no remorse. I think in the short time we knew her, she showed more remorse and self awareness than any other character who we knew to have done 'wrong'. She seemed to me to be learning about her self, her motives and her motivations, and going through a journey of self exploration. When she lost the baby there would have been an element of irrationality about her reaction but I think she possibly displayed learned behaviour too. After seeking her revenge by killing Jason though, she probably thought she should feel 'happier' for want of a better word. I think it confused her, both because knowing he was dead didn't ease her pain as she'd expected, and also because she felt guilt. Guilt she hadn't anticipated as she'd felt justified at the time.

I think, despite some of her aggressive behaviour when we first saw her (which can be explained by the fear she, Libby et al had about the others), Ana showed that she was both emotionally vunerable and compassionate. She'd come a long way even before the crash and showed that she was ready to face her past actions when she called her mother from the airport. The only reason she killed Shannon was self preservation and trying to protect her fellow survivors. Her words just before Michael shot her didn't convey regret at not being able to shoot Ben, imo, rather that she realised this wasn't something she felt she was capable of any longer or even wanted to do, and then being left confused and tired, seeking clarity about who she really was. As a police officer she'd previously had to call the shots but turning her back on violence and relinquishing all control over the Ben situation showed she felt defeated. She'd tried to treat Ben with respect and really talk to him and then knew he'd lied to her and tried to strangle her. So giving the gun to Michael merely displayed defeatism rather than a desire to have Ben killed by proxy.

I know I'm probably fighting a losing battle with the Ana critics but hey, life'd be boring if we all agreed. And I'm sure Roco'll back me up fighting Ana's corner when he returns!

Sorry for the ramble!

I think that's a very well-reasoned post, though I don't concur with its conclusion: I guess this sort of thing's very much open to interpretation.

My reading of 'I couldn't even shoot him' - I do think 'even' is a significant and unusual word to place in such a sentence and it does imply to me that Ana Lucia felt shooting a man who'd wronged her should, for her, be a conventionally attainable goal. Which I think is a fairly major problem. I also think that the enunciation of that sentence contained a degree of self-contempt, but not so much for the fact that she wanted to carry out a revenge killing as for the fact that she was too weak, tired, unmotivated or whatever to carry it out... though having said that, her self-loathing is doubtless multi-faceted and I wouldn't be wholly surprised, for all her ignorance about why precisely she is so unlikeable (even while she recognises that she is), if there was a degree of condemnation within her for a person who has hitherto considered revenge killing a normal and easily carried out behaviour. I'd hope so anyway.

As to her handing the gun to Michael, I suppose we'll never know her precise motivation, but tiredness as an excuse for knowingly enabling a man to carry out murder really wouldn't cut it in court - especially not for an ex police officer. Very few people in this programme demonstrate the slightest degree of adult responsibility for the firearms that have been put in their care or, in Ana and Sawyer's cases, they have appropriated charge of. And with Ana, it wasn't even stupid carelessness (as it was with Sawyer when he lost the gun to her trick seduction): if it was really nothing more than her being too beaten down to take a stand against Michael's committing murder, surely that's wilful negligance. Anyway, it was a case of taking action, not of failing to take action: she had to physically hand over the gun and recite the combination to the lock. Michael didn't even begin to force her to hand over the gun. He asked. Basically, I don't think she was sufficiently passive for her actions to be put down to weariness alone. And I doubt it was a combination of defeatism *and* genuinely wanting Ben to survive. You'd have to be pretty comatose to think 'I want to protect Ben's life but I can't be bothered not providing the means to his murder'.

So, yeah. I remained fairly convinced that her wanting Ben dead by some means or other was a key factor in her handing over the gun. And whatever her motives... she really shouldn't have handed over the gun.