Did Hurley Owe it to Sawyer to Jump?

[D-Roc]

I wonder if Hurley owed it to Sawyer to jump in after him? I mean Sawyer came back for him and everything..

Whilst it was Sawyer's decision and his alone to become a "martyr" (quoted because I don't actually believe he is), should Hugo have follwed his 'saviour' into the deep blue?

That's what 'friends' are for, right?

..or does this tell us that Hugo doesn't consider Sawyer a 'friend'. Personally I don't think he does seem him as a friend, but there you go.

I mean, he was willing to dive into the sea after Dave, for heavens sake I shouldn't laugh, I know he was having issues at that time, and I apologise..although i'm laughing at the thought of him placing an imaginary person over Sawyer.

[Reed]

I feel Hurley would have drowned, and had they both jumped together Sawyer would have struggled to keep Hurley afloat. We all recall when Hurley squeezed Sawyer with joy in S3 after he returned from the Hydra/Others - I think Hugo DOES see him as a friend.

Regarding Dave, Hurley thought it was all a dream and that jumping off the cliff would 'free' him and/or 'wake' him up or something to that affect. It was a very confusing time for Hugo. Hugo did feel terrible because he KNEW he was the reason the helicopter was experiencing trouble; and so did the rest of them, which he also knew.

It was a little selfish of Hurley it could be argued, however his size gives him the exception here in my opinion.

[esn]

I gotta stand up for Hurley here. I think Hurley did consider it - I think the look on his face when Frank told them it would be better if they lost a few hundred pounds told us that. But I think a combination of fear, wanting to get rescued and wanting to stay with the rest of them made him stay. I think Sawyer jumping says more about him than it does about Hurley for not jumping. Also, as to why he didn't jump after Sawyer - again the same worries apply. It took a tremondous amount of bottle to do what Sawyer did and I doubt that many of us could look at ourselves in the mirror, and say we would have been able to do the same.

As for the Dave thing - that was a different thing. Hurley was losing it mentally, as Reed says, and was beginning to think it was a dream. When in that circumstance, you lose all rationality.


Also, more importantly, Sawyer himself wouldnt have wanted Hurley jumping after him. He would have been more annoyed if Hurley had done so, since it would have betrayed his act of braveness - he did it to save Hurley (amoung others) and theres Hurley in the water next to him. So IMO, since Sawyer himself didn't feel that Hurley owed it to him, then theres no way that Hurley owed it to Sawyer to jump in after him.

[D-Roc]

I would question the "bottle" that it took for Sawyer to jump, considering it was (in my opinion) more about self-preservation and not wanting to go home, more than anything. I think it would have taken more bottle to stay in the chopper, rather than leap out when you know full well that you'll be able to swim back if you jump out now - but that's for another thread

But you raise an interesting point - motivation. Sawyer had more reason to swim back to the island than Hugo did (again, suggesting that Sawyer was scared of going back home?).

I do worry at this 'brave' light that Sawyer's act seems to be viewed in. The more I think about it, the more it seems self-interested, as opposed to brave. Sawyer wants to be the martyr, he wants to be the "Charlie" and he's literally trying to buy the martyr ticket. Bravery is doing something self sacrificing..not self-serving. If i was in a car that I knew was going to crash in 5 minutes, and I jumped out..would I be 'brave'? Heck no, deep down I'd know that I did what was right for me. But there you go

Seriously, the man jumped out of a helicopter and swam to the island all smiles. What about Satsuma Phillips? What about Sundance?

As for Hugo, yeah, he probably was scared witless..although he must be a decent swimmer seeing as he had less trouble than Jack in finding that life raft after the chopper crashed

[monster-eats-pilot]

I thought Hurley would of jumped at the chance (s'cuse the pun) he could of done a beautiful cannonball into the sea

[D-Roc]

lol, he's rather fond of those isn't he. Bless.

[KatesFate]

I do worry at this 'brave' light that Sawyer's act seems to be viewed in. The more I think about it, the more it seems self-interested, as opposed to brave. Sawyer wants to be the martyr, he wants to be the "Charlie" and he's literally trying to buy the martyr ticket. Bravery is doing something self sacrificing..not self-serving. If i was in a car that I knew was going to crash in 5 minutes, and I jumped out..would I be 'brave'? Heck no, deep down I'd know that I did what was right for me. But there you go

I see no indication that Sawyer wants to be the martyr and play "Charlie". What would cause you to feel that way exactly? I believe he was self-sacrificing as you say. He seemed awfully happy to get on that chopper and escape that island. How do we know that Clementine and Cass were not on his mind that whole time? Sawyer was clearly happy to leave until he realized that the chopper would go down. There was nothing that happened during that scene to make one think that he was being selfish. Its not like he was watching Jack and Kate kiss before he jumped.

He thought of his girls before he jumped and could have been thinking of them the whole time. If he was playing the martyr, I would think he would have wanted everyone on the chopper to hear his pleas for them and not just Kate.

And also, I don't think Sawyer "knew" the chopper was going to crash after he jumped. He jumped so that it would not crash remember? Oh and Roc lol nice try but your jumping out of that said car would not have any impact on whether it crashed or not.

[Reed]

Good point esn, I agree that Hurley wanted to go home, was absolutely terrified of jumping and was comfortable in the Helicopter with his friends. The jump into the Ocean was sensational purely because of the height of the Chopper.

Less we forget that the Freighter [albeit rather far in distance across] looked like a "spec of dust" in the Ocean from the Chopper, testament to it's height. I also support that Sawyer would have been annoyed HAD Hurley jumped.

However, I have seen the title thread "Jumping out of responsibility" and D-Roc's comments here and I agree with that also - he does owe that Loanshark ALOT of money afterall. While he gets to avoid Cassidy/Clementine situation quite possibly.

BUT, Sawyer still deserves much credit without a doubt. We could argue he sacrified a reunion and a life of happiness by sacrificing his chance to see his [soon-to-'possibly'-be] family.

Perhaps it was a little "self-serving" but I feel we cannot eliminate the "self-sacrifice" at the same time. A good thing is a good thing nonetheless even if it serves one's self, though yes the thought is 'tarnished' too.

I forgot about Hugo staying afloat when the Chopper crashed, however perhaps jumping at Sawyer's height would have meant Hugo's end. One cannonball too many - especially if he landed ON Sawyer. Only joking.

Nice points KF regarding his whispering to Kate [alone], and the idea of having his family on his mind the whole time.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by KatesFate

I see no indication that Sawyer wants to be the martyr and play "Charlie". What would cause you to feel that way exactly? I believe he was self-sacrificing as you say. He seemed awfully happy to get on that chopper and escape that island. How do we know that Clementine and Cass were not on his mind that whole time? Sawyer was clearly happy to leave until he realized that the chopper would go down. There was nothing that happened during that scene to make one think that he was being selfish. Its not like he was watching Jack and Kate kiss before he jumped.

He thought of his girls before he jumped and could have been thinking of them the whole time. If he was playing the martyr, I would think he would have wanted everyone on the chopper to hear his pleas for them and not just Kate.

And also, I don't think Sawyer "knew" the chopper was going to crash after he jumped. He jumped so that it would not crash remember? Oh and Roc lol nice try but your jumping out of that said car would not have any impact on whether it crashed or not.

Originally Posted by KatesFate

I see no indication that Sawyer wants to be the martyr and play "Charlie". What would cause you to feel that way exactly? I believe he was self-sacrificing as you say. He seemed awfully happy to get on that chopper and escape that island. How do we know that Clementine and Cass were not on his mind that whole time? Sawyer was clearly happy to leave until he realized that the chopper would go down. There was nothing that happened during that scene to make one think that he was being selfish. Its not like he was watching Jack and Kate kiss before he jumped.

Sawyer's whole character is built around being the martyr..remember Adrift? ..what about all of his centric episodes? It's all about Sawyer beating himself up, inflicting self-pain so that he can feel justified in what he does to others.

As I said, yes he was initially happy to get on the chooper, but that's natural rush of 'freedom'. Once he thought about it he realised that he was unsure that it was what he really wanted. he was conflicted throught the episode - have a look at his expression when he sees Kate tenderly touch Jack's hips..did that look like a man who wanted to go home to 'that'?

I realise Sawer fans don't want to think negavily of their man, but in the cold light of day it's by no means certain that he was being "selfless" as you say, even the producers themselves have questioned whether Sawyer was really being selfless..I think they would know what they're talking about don't you?

He shunned responsibility and the prospect of seeing Jack and Kate hook-up, over the sanctuary of the island where he could be "someone" as Ben so insightfully put it.

He thought of his girls before he jumped and could have been thinking of them the whole time. If he was playing the martyr, I would think he would have wanted everyone on the chopper to hear his pleas for them and not just Kate.

Of course he thought of them - he was nearly on his way back, so they would be on his mind..but that's the thing..he thought of them cos he didn't want to take responsibility for looking after Clem. Let's not pretend that Sawyer is incapable of being selfish. This IS Sawyer afterall, it would be short-sighted of me not to question his motivations. There's no way we should just lap up the notion of him being heroic..this was no Charlie..this was no Michael..this was Sawyer people. Please don't be conned by him again.

No, being the martyr doesn't mean that he'd want everyone to hear his pleas..that's not a prerequisite to being a martyr. The fact is, he told Kate and jumped out at the point where he knew he'd still be able to make it back to the island. He dumped HIS responsibility onto Kate and caused a seed of conflict between Jack and Kate. Of course Sawyer knew what he was doing, it was the PERFECT way to steal attention and hold on to the thought that Kate might be pinning after him. Sawyer played a very convenient move..he knows it, the writers know it, why don't we all know it?

And also, I don't think Sawyer "knew" the chopper was going to crash after he jumped. He jumped so that it would not crash remember? Oh and Roc lol nice try but your jumping out of that said car would not have any impact on whether it crashed or not.

I think he had a fairly good idea that it would crash. I've already addressed this above - him jumping out made no difference to the helicopter making it or not. Seriously, he must have bought them what, 5 seconds?..which they clearly didn't need as they didn't struggle to make the boat in the end. IMO he would have estimated that it would be unlikely that those 5 seconds would have made much difference and it would have been a miracle if did. As I said, Sawyer hedged his bets..he dumped his resposnisbility onto Kate and jumped out so that he could be safe..and hey, if the chopper made it then Kate would be thankful to him. Seriously guys, this is classic Sawyer stuff..he does this all the time. And lest we forget "I'm doing what i've always done, Kate...SURVIVING"

Until he retracts those words, you all are going to have a VERY difficult time convincing me and probably yourselves, that was completely selfless in his act.

Remember, he's a complicated guy..at the very least there were alot of self-interest in his actions. To lap it up as heroic and selfess is to not truely understand the character of Sawyer, imo.

lol, the example I gave was an example. I was not trying to trick you..i'm simply saying that Sawyer knew there was agood chance the chopper was going to crash..it made perfect sense for someone who wants to "survive" to jump out..oh, and not before unloading his duties onto Kate

[esn]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

I would question the "bottle" that it took for Sawyer to jump, considering it was (in my opinion) more about self-preservation and not wanting to go home, more than anything. I think it would have taken more bottle to stay in the chopper, rather than leap out when you know full well that you'll be able to swim back if you jump out now - but that's for another thread

But you raise an interesting point - motivation. Sawyer had more reason to swim back to the island than Hugo did (again, suggesting that Sawyer was scared of going back home?).

I do worry at this 'brave' light that Sawyer's act seems to be viewed in. The more I think about it, the more it seems self-interested, as opposed to brave. Sawyer wants to be the martyr, he wants to be the "Charlie" and he's literally trying to buy the martyr ticket. Bravery is doing something self sacrificing..not self-serving. If i was in a car that I knew was going to crash in 5 minutes, and I jumped out..would I be 'brave'? Heck no, deep down I'd know that I did what was right for me. But there you go

Seriously, the man jumped out of a helicopter and swam to the island all smiles. What about Satsuma Phillips? What about Sundance?

As for Hugo, yeah, he probably was scared witless..although he must be a decent swimmer seeing as he had less trouble than Jack in finding that life raft after the chopper crashed

I disagree. The reason being is that (using an extreme example and I apologise now if this causes any offence) a person commiting suicide. It is my understanding that many - dispite having suffcient motivation (perhaps more motivation than Sawyer) to go through with the deed, just can't get themselves to do it. Why? Because of the strong surivial instinct. The fact that hitting the water from such a great height is bound to hurt - a lot. I mean even proffessional divers (and Im not talking about Drogba here ) lose their bottle - and they have done the dives thousands of times.

Yes Sawyer had suffiecent motivation to do so - but at the same time, pyschologically, he had to overcome a lot to throw himself out of that helicopter. So yes, what he did was brave. Bare in mind also, that that water, as he well knows, is shark infested. I do conceed that there may have been a degree of self preservation in there as well. But, I would say that diving out of a car before its going to crash was brave Roco - you are, diving out of the car at the same speed the car is going at, you could easily break your neck or do somthing else stupid.

As for the smiles - well that could be attributed to the man that Sawyer is, but also that jumping out of the helicopter and surviving, is going to give anyone a huge adreanline rush that will neccitate a big high. Furthermore, I think he was laughing at his own good luck - or perhaps he was laughing that the whole "so close yet so far" thing?

As for Hurley. Well a lot of people dont have faith in thier ablities - I dont, and can do things that they dont think they are capble of. That said, Hurley is hardley the fittest person on the island and I do doubt his physical capacity to do what Sawyer did. In regards to him reaching the raft first - well fat does tend to be quite boyant in water .