Did Hurley Owe it to Sawyer to Jump?

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Originally Posted by Lotusblüte

Then, why didn't Jack jump for Kate? Or Kate for Jack and Sawyer? If Hurley would have jumped you could ask: Why didn't Sawyer do it? Doesn't he love Kate and Hurley is a friend?

because Kate's selfish and only thinks of herself. Jack wanted to see through his 'success' of getting everyone home. Hurley on the other hand is a more ethical person - I would have thought it would have crossed his mind to jump for the men who came all the way to the Orchid to 'rescue' him.

I don't think Sawyer loves Kate per se, and I don't think he would even class Hurley as a 'friend'. Just my opinion, but we are talking about selfish Sawyer here.

I don't think the wristers were thinking about relationships or anything because they needed Sawyer to be on the island and Hurley off the island.

That's actually my point - Sawyer's so-called 'heroism' is less about 'heroism' and more about convenience for the plot

The Hurley/Sawyer bond is different than Hurley/Charlie, that's true. I think they have more a brother like friendship with Sawyer as the caring friend and that's why he would jump instead of Hurley. Hurley had no problem to live with him and playing games with him, so I guess he is his friend. He could have lived with Claire and Aaron but he didn't.

True, certain friendships are different and people find different qualities in different people, that's for sure. However I can't get past the fact that Sawyer has only started being friendly with Hurley since the Losties backs were against the wall (i.e. since their lives were in danger). I'd like to see how Sawyer would treat Hurley on a day to day basis when they have no Keamy etc hunting them down.

Living with a person for literally two days, when you're being hunted by a band of mercenaries and playing horse-shoe doesn't make someone your friend though, Lostblute. A friend is someone who is there for you when things are bad, good or indifferent..and not when the fancy takes you - like Sawyer did in S4 imho.

I understand where you're coming from, but we'd really need to see some consistency from Sawyer re: Hurley before I jump into bed with the idea that he is his friend and vice versa..

And I thought they gave them a moment in the finale. It was not important to the story but it was still a nice moment "Thanks for coming back". If they wouldn't have a friendship I don't think it would have been in the finale.

I think that was more convenience to the logistics of the episode - it was a good opportunity for the writers to allow Locke and Jack to have their moment, whislt informing us of where Sawyer and Hurley were - i.e. that they hadn't just left Jack and gone on their merry way. However, I do acknowledge your point of view.

I forgot that Hurley risked his life for Sawyer,too. When he helped him and Claire in 409. He saw it coming when he asked Ben and Locke how Sawyer would get back in and they said "He is not". He didn't know if Ben would kill him when he threw something through the window.

Granted, but i think it was more cos Claire was with him. Also, i highly doubt that he thought Ben would actually 'kill' him. Hurley's a good judge of character (remember his "you're alright" to Sayid in an early S1 episode..which, ironically, also included his distain towards "redneck" Sawyer), I think he knew that Ben wasn't going to kill anyone.

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Originally Posted by KatesFate

I dont have any problem seeing Sawyer in a negative light. I realize he has faults; we all do. You are right, it is by no means CERTAIN that Sawyer was being selfless. At the same token, its not CERTAIN that he wasn't being heroic. Out of curiosity, when did the producers question Sawyers selflessness? I would like to read about that one day.

Granted, however my objective isn't to say that it's definetely my way..rather to point out that, as you say, it's not certain that he jumped for selfless reasons. Before this thread that was all people were saying - that Sawyer was so brave, so selfless etc. So i'm glad that we can reason that his true motivations were unclear.

I love how you work Ben and his insightfulness into the topic. You crack me up with your Ben Love.

When it is clear that they need to dump weight to keep going, Frank states something like, "It'll be close, but if we lighten the load we just might make it." (Im going to have to watch that scene again to make sure of what he says) I stand firm in my belief that Sawyer was certain that if he jumped the chopper would make it to the freighter. The jump fits in perfectly with his change of character as of late and I still think the writers are going somewhere with this. Where I dont know, but somewhere.

From what I recall Frank didn't know where the boat was and seemed to infer that even losing some 'dead weight' probably wouldn't be enough. I think he felt better with the knowledge knowing that they had an extra few seconds just in case they needed it. However, it's far from "certain" that Sawyer jumped cuz he thought the chopper might make it - how on earth would Sawyer know if the pilot didn't know where the boat was?

Well, we know were I stand re: sawyer's "change of character" I still think it was more for plot convenience than any overriding character 'arc'.

Why would he whisper a request to Kate if he felt she would crash into the ocean at any minute. I dont believe that he would just leave Kate and the others to die like that. He jumped for everyone on that chopper. Well, except maybe Jack!

Why does anyone say anything to someone they know is going to die moments before they die? Because either they want to get it (whatever 'it' is) off their chest or they 'hope' that they might somehow make it. I think it's a bit of both when it comes to Sawyer.

I highly doubt that he "jumped for everyone on that chopper" - as you said, he didn't jump for Jack..and he sure as hell didn't jump for Frank..or Sayid for that matter

You say that you don't believe Sawyer would leave Kate and the others just like that - but lets go back to the beginning of season 4 - that's exactly what he did, KF! Kate was an incredulous as you are with the thought of Sawyer being so selfish..i remember he disbelief clearly. So why is it so unbelievable that Sawyer might do the same thing a mere 13 episodes later?

I have also been pondering the so-called smiling Sawyer does when he walks onto the beach and I dont think he is smiling. At first it does look that way, but I think he is just squinting. He is on the beach, dripping wet and looking into the sun. If you watch it again you can see that its just his squinting face.

Sorry, but he is definetely smiling as he walks up to Jules. One would dare say he was even flirting! The man has no morals I tells ya!

(I'll provide a screencap is necessary).

Sawyer was not needed to "plant seeds of conflict" in Kates and Jacks relationship either. Jack was capable of handling this one all on his own.

touche

I would have asked someone to look after my family as well or whatever he asked of her.

But that's surely because you don't want to shirk your responsibilities? Sawyer, on the other hand, has run away from his responsibilities..hence he has a reason to dump it onto someone else.

As for Hurley owing anything to Sawyer, I dont think he owed him anything.

Some "friend" he is then. Case in point, Hugo doesn't care about sawyer from your viewpoint then..

Its simple, Sawyer was obviously crushed when he saw that the freighter had exploded. Why would he care if he didnt want off of the island? And it couldnt be because he felt his friends were dead, because according to you, he already made the choice to let them die without him. Just some food for thought.

He was shocked, yes. "crushed"? Not so sure on that one

Well, even if he had already made up his mind that it was 'likely' that the chopper and those onboard wouldn't make it, seeing the boat in ruins would still make ones heart sink because then it would be real. Take a person in palliative care, for example. Their loved ones would know that this person is going to die soon..however when it actually happens it would still be a shock (etc) to them, would it not?

[KatesFate]

So i'm glad that we can reason that his true motivations were unclear.

I will agree with you on this. We definitly dont know for certain. But, I just want to make clear that I am in no way backing down from my position as I am sure in time it will be found that he was being selfless. lol

Well, we know were I stand re: sawyer's "change of character" I still think it was more for plot convenience than any overriding character 'arc'.

I know where you stand here, but Sawyer's change of character has been taking place for a while now rather gradually. It is not as if this change all took place during the season finale. I for one hope that it has a little meaning behind it and is not just for the sake of telling the rest of the story. The writers of this show take not one word or scene for granted and know that neither do the viewers. I just dont believe they would use Sawyers character in such a nonchalent way.

You say that you don't believe Sawyer would leave Kate and the others just like that - but lets go back to the beginning of season 4 - that's exactly what he did, KF! Kate was an incredulous as you are with the thought of Sawyer being so selfish..i remember he disbelief clearly. So why is it so unbelievable that Sawyer might do the same thing a mere 13 episodes later?

I dont think Sawyer was being "selfish" when he decided to go with Locke instead. He made a rational decision based on the facts that he had just like Hurley, Claire, Rose and Bernard, etc., did. Do you think all of them were being selfish as well? Whom do you believe he was being selfish towards Kate? She makes up her own mind and nothing Sawyer would have said or done could have gotten her to stay with him instead of Jack anyway.

Sorry, but he is definetely smiling as he walks up to Jules. One would dare say he was even flirting! The man has no morals I tells ya!

Perhaps Sawyer was just being a southern gentleman. You know, "Howdy Ma'am".

No screencap necessary my dear sir, I've seen it thousands of times. Maybe he did smile a little.

Quote:
As for Hurley owing anything to Sawyer, I dont think he owed him anything.
Some "friend" he is then. Case in point, Hugo doesn't care about sawyer from your viewpoint then..

Let me rephrase that. I dont think any of them owed it to any of the rest to jump out of that chopper. Friends should never owe friends anything. You do for your friends because you love them and you never expect anything in return. Hurley, imo, obviously felt guilty about his weight holding them back, but he was scared. He didnt owe it to Sawyer anymore than he owed it to anybody else.

It appears that you and I could go on about this forever, but we both know we will never fully agree with each other. We will have to agree to disagree for we both could debate it until the cows come home. Rest assured I may argue with you when it comes to Sawyer, but Ive got your back when it comes to Ben.

AND SAWYER!

^^^ Can we get one of these that says Sawyer?