Did Hurley Owe it to Sawyer to Jump?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by esn

I disagree. The reason being is that (using an extreme example and I apologise now if this causes any offence) a person commiting suicide. It is my understanding that many - dispite having suffcient motivation (perhaps more motivation than Sawyer) to go through with the deed, just can't get themselves to do it. Why? Because of the strong surivial instinct. The fact that hitting the water from such a great height is bound to hurt - a lot. I mean even proffessional divers (and Im not talking about Drogba here ) lose their bottle - and they have done the dives thousands of times.

I doubt profressional divers lose their bottle because of the water hurting them - rather because they would be doing far more completicated dives consisting of pivots and turns. All Hurley would be doing is curling up into a ball and letting gravity do it's thing. I doubt it would hurt at all..I doubt it hurt Sawyer and he has less padding.

Yes Sawyer had suffiecent motivation to do so - but at the same time, pyschologically, he had to overcome a lot to throw himself out of that helicopter. So yes, what he did was brave. Bare in mind also, that that water, as he well knows, is shark infested. I do conceed that there may have been a degree of self preservation in there as well. But, I would say that diving out of a car before its going to crash was brave Roco - you are, diving out of the car at the same speed the car is going at, you could easily break your neck or do somthing else stupid.

so-called bravery can be outweighed by other factors, such as the logical decision to live rather than dying. At that point, he knew that the chopper had a very good chance of not making it to the boat, so jumping out must have seemed like a pretty decent option to him. Like you said above, the 'survival instinct' is a strong one..hence he lent towards the option which provided better odds of survival.

Re: sharks - since when has Sawyer been afraid of sharks? He couldn't care less about them in Adrift and so I think he got over that fear..or at the very least, the sharks didn't even enter his mind..they wouldn't have entered my mind if i were him..i'd be more worried about getting out a-sap so that I wasn't too far away to swim back to the island. And again..the odds of survival were stacked in the direction of jumping out..so I'd say that would counter-balance any slight thought that he would have given to sharks.

and yes, if I knew a car was going to crash (and none of my family or friends were onboard), i'd still jump out even if it meant possibily breaking my neck..because at the end of the day, those odds are better than being trapped in a hunk of metal when it collides with whatever. It would make more sense from a survival POV to jump out of the car, even at the risk of injury or death, than it would to remain in the car and let fate kiss you goodnight. Infact i wouldn't even think about the dangers of jumping out, because i'd know for a fact that those were still better survival odds. Hence why Sawyer jumped imho.

At the very least, Sawyer's heroics are anything but black and white..as with everything Ford, there are shades of gray involved. Redemption is rarely gray.

As for the smiles - well that could be attributed to the man that Sawyer is, but also that jumping out of the helicopter and surviving, is going to give anyone a huge adreanline rush that will neccitate a big high. Furthermore, I think he was laughing at his own good luck - or perhaps he was laughing that the whole "so close yet so far" thing?

Exactly, you said it..he's relived to have lived and possibly saved himself whilst his so-called friends have perished in the sea, for all he knew. If that were me i'd be distraught at my own existence whilst my friends are possibly dead, and i'd also be sick with worry about Kate, my new best friend Hurley and the likelyhood that my responsibility-dumping wouldn't make it back to my baby girl that I love so much.

Whilst it's all good making up scenarios (and there's nothing wrong with that), i think we kinda need to look at the facts rather than fantasy notions which paint Sawyer in the best light possible. Surely we have to at least accept that his actions were not completely alturistic..c'mon guys let's be real here, this isn't Mary Poppins were talking about, lol.

As for Hurley. Well a lot of people dont have faith in thier ablities - I dont, and can do things that they dont think they are capble of. That said, Hurley is hardley the fittest person on the island and I do doubt his physical capacity to do what Sawyer did. In regards to him reaching the raft first - well fat does tend to be quite boyant in water .

I'm just saying that I think Hugo would've sacrificed his life for a real friend such as Charlie - as Charlie did for him. However, it would seem that he doesn't see Sawyer as worthy of sacrificing his life for, otherwise he would have made tat sacrifice, even if it meant drowing imo.

I just think this is a little reminder that the hastily manufactered 'friendship' betwee Sawyer and Hugo was more for plot convenience, as opposed to any real character narrative, like the beautiful and charming Hugo/Charlie bond.

[Miss Austen]

Re the sharks. Yes I agree that Sawyer isn't frightened of sharks but we were talking about whether it was a brave thing to do. He could have been attacked by sharks (or even a shark)!

Therefore it was a brave act even if he isn't/wasn't frightened of sharks. From an outsider's viewpoint, weighing up the risks he took, it was a brave act.

I think there has been friendship with Sawyer and Hurley bubbling under the surface for quite some time and when Hurley called Sawyer a red...neck...man, Sawyer seemed to admire Hurley for giving him a taste of his own medicine! As I said before, Hurley even managed to get the flight manifest from Sawyer without too many problems.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Miss Austen

Re the sharks. Yes I agree that Sawyer isn't frightened of sharks but we were talking about whether it was a brave thing to do. He could have been attacked by sharks (or even a shark)!

Therefore it was a brave act even if he isn't/wasn't frightened of sharks. From an outsider's viewpoint, weighing up the risks he took, it was a brave act.

Granted, but surely fear is relative..if someone isn't afraid of something and they face that thing head-on, then that's not really them being brave. Whereas if someone actually fears something and yet they still face it head-on, then that is brave. Likewise, Sawyer isn't afraid of sharks and he faced the prospect of swimming with them (although I still doubt they even crossed his mind)...yet the very thing he is afraid of (i.e. being responsible for Clementine), he shirks and takes the cowards way out :P

I think we should be judging bravery in relation to what the said individual fears or not. Look at Charlie - he feared dying and it took him a long time to come to terms with the sacrifice he knew he was going to make..yet he faced that fear like a true warrior soldier, God rest his soul

I think there has been friendship with Sawyer and Hurley bubbling under the surface for quite some time and when Hurley called Sawyer a red...neck...man, Sawyer seemed to admire Hurley for giving him a taste of his own medicine! As I said before, Hurley even managed to get the flight manifest from Sawyer without too many problems.

Isolated flickers of a friendship does not a friendship make. Whilst I accept that their relationship has improved, I honestly do not consider them to be 'friends'. Sawyer's recent upward arc seems more convenient to the S4 plot (i.e. the others/losties under attack, backs to the wall stuff etc) rather than any great character narrative.

[Lotusblüte]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

I doubt profressional divers lose their bottle because of the water hurting them - rather because they would be doing far more completicated dives consisting of pivots and turns. All Hurley would be doing is curling up into a ball and letting gravity do it's thing. I doubt it would hurt at all..I doubt it hurt Sawyer and he has less padding.


so-called bravery can be outweighed by other factors, such as the logical decision to live rather than dying. At that point, he knew that the chopper had a very good chance of not making it to the boat, so jumping out must have seemed like a pretty decent option to him. Like you said above, the 'survival instinct' is a strong one..hence he lent towards the option which provided better odds of survival.

Re: sharks - since when has Sawyer been afraid of sharks? He couldn't care less about them in Adrift and so I think he got over that fear..or at the very least, the sharks didn't even enter his mind..they wouldn't have entered my mind if i were him..i'd be more worried about getting out a-sap so that I wasn't too far away to swim back to the island. And again..the odds of survival were stacked in the direction of jumping out..so I'd say that would counter-balance any slight thought that he would have given to sharks.

and yes, if I knew a car was going to crash (and none of my family or friends were onboard), i'd still jump out even if it meant possibily breaking my neck..because at the end of the day, those odds are better than being trapped in a hunk of metal when it collides with whatever. It would make more sense from a survival POV to jump out of the car, even at the risk of injury or death, than it would to remain in the car and let fate kiss you goodnight. Infact i wouldn't even think about the dangers of jumping out, because i'd know for a fact that those were still better survival odds. Hence why Sawyer jumped imho.

At the very least, Sawyer's heroics are anything but black and white..as with everything Ford, there are shades of gray involved. Redemption is rarely gray.

Exactly, you said it..he's relived to have lived and possibly saved himself whilst his so-called friends have perished in the sea, for all he knew. If that were me i'd be distraught at my own existence whilst my friends are possibly dead, and i'd also be sick with worry about Kate, my new best friend Hurley and the likelyhood that my responsibility-dumping wouldn't make it back to my baby girl that I love so much.

Whilst it's all good making up scenarios (and there's nothing wrong with that), i think we kinda need to look at the facts rather than fantasy notions which paint Sawyer in the best light possible. Surely we have to at least accept that his actions were not completely alturistic..c'mon guys let's be real here, this isn't Mary Poppins were talking about, lol.

I'm just saying that I think Hugo would've sacrificed his life for a real friend such as Charlie - as Charlie did for him. However, it would seem that he doesn't see Sawyer as worthy of sacrificing his life for, otherwise he would have made tat sacrifice, even if it meant drowing imo.

I just think this is a little reminder that the hastily manufactered 'friendship' betwee Sawyer and Hugo was more for plot convenience, as opposed to any real character narrative, like the beautiful and charming Hugo/Charlie bond.

Then, why didn't Jack jump for Kate? Or Kate for Jack and Sawyer? If Hurley would have jumped you could ask: Why didn't Sawyer do it? Doesn't he love Kate and Hurley is a friend? I don't think the wristers were thinking about relationships or anything because they needed Sawyer to be on the island and Hurley off the island.

The Hurley/Sawyer bond is different than Hurley/Charlie, that's true. I think they have more a brother like friendship with Sawyer as the caring friend and that's why he would jump instead of Hurley. Hurley had no problem to live with him and playing games with him, so I guess he is his friend. He could have lived with Claire and Aaron but he didn't.


And I thought they gave them a moment in the finale. It was not important to the story but it was still a nice moment "Thanks for coming back". If they wouldn't have a friendship I don't think it would have been in the finale.

I forgot that Hurley risked his life for Sawyer,too. When he helped him and Claire in 409. He saw it coming when he asked Ben and Locke how Sawyer would get back in and they said "He is not". He didn't know if Ben would kill him when he threw something through the window.

[esn]

Just to say, I haven't had time to reply to this because I have been busy with work today.

[KatesFate]

I have soo much to respond to here. Unfortunatly it will have to wait until I put my boys to bed tonight. In the words of the Terminator - I'll Be Back

[KatesFate]

Sawyer's whole character is built around being the martyr..remember Adrift? ..what about all of his centric episodes? It's all about Sawyer beating himself up, inflicting self-pain so that he can feel justified in what he does to others.

I agree with you here, his character is built around being the martyr. But, I also know that everyone acts out of character on occassion. You yourself have stated that Sawyer has not acted like his usual self as of late. It IS possible that for once Sawyer put others before himself. It seems to be something he has done quite often in the last few episodes of season 4.

I realise Sawer fans don't want to think negavily of their man, but in the cold light of day it's by no means certain that he was being "selfless" as you say, even the producers themselves have questioned whether Sawyer was really being selfless..I think they would know what they're talking about don't you?

He shunned responsibility and the prospect of seeing Jack and Kate hook-up, over the sanctuary of the island where he could be "someone" as Ben so insightfully put it.

I dont have any problem seeing Sawyer in a negative light. I realize he has faults; we all do. You are right, it is by no means CERTAIN that Sawyer was being selfless. At the same token, its not CERTAIN that he wasn't being heroic. Out of curiosity, when did the producers question Sawyers selflessness? I would like to read about that one day.

I love how you work Ben and his insightfulness into the topic. You crack me up with your Ben Love.

No, being the martyr doesn't mean that he'd want everyone to hear his pleas..that's not a prerequisite to being a martyr. The fact is, he told Kate and jumped out at the point where he knew he'd still be able to make it back to the island. He dumped HIS responsibility onto Kate and caused a seed of conflict between Jack and Kate. Of course Sawyer knew what he was doing, it was the PERFECT way to steal attention and hold on to the thought that Kate might be pinning after him. Sawyer played a very convenient move..he knows it, the writers know it, why don't we all know it?

When it is clear that they need to dump weight to keep going, Frank states something like, "It'll be close, but if we lighten the load we just might make it." (Im going to have to watch that scene again to make sure of what he says) I stand firm in my belief that Sawyer was certain that if he jumped the chopper would make it to the freighter. The jump fits in perfectly with his change of character as of late and I still think the writers are going somewhere with this. Where I dont know, but somewhere.

Sawyer was believing that the chopper would make it to the freighter and come back for everyone else on the island. He knew with Sayid on board, once they reached the freighter, Sayid could fix the leak on the chopper. Why would he whisper a request to Kate if he felt she would crash into the ocean at any minute. I dont believe that he would just leave Kate and the others to die like that. He jumped for everyone on that chopper. Well, except maybe Jack!

I have also been pondering the so-called smiling Sawyer does when he walks onto the beach and I dont think he is smiling. At first it does look that way, but I think he is just squinting. He is on the beach, dripping wet and looking into the sun. If you watch it again you can see that its just his squinting face.

Sawyer was not needed to "plant seeds of conflict" in Kates and Jacks relationship either. Jack was capable of handling this one all on his own. I dont think he dumped any responsibility on Kate. He did what any of us would have done. He asked a favor of her, because he loves and trusts her, before he jumped back to the island that is more than impossible to get off of fixed chopper or not. I would have asked someone to look after my family as well or whatever he asked of her.

I cant really argue the whole Cass and Clementine thing and why he didnt stay on the chopper and wait for someone else to jump in order to be with his family instead of choosing to save the 06. The only reasoning I have is that maybe hes assuming they will no longer want to be his family after his reaction to her informing him that he had a daughter. Or that eventually his friends on the chopper would somehow get him and everyone else off of the island as well.

As for Hurley owing anything to Sawyer, I dont think he owed him anything. Sawyer would have never let Hurley jump out of that chopper anyway. If Hurley did manage to jump, I could totally see Sawyer going in after him anyway.

Its simple, Sawyer was obviously crushed when he saw that the freighter had exploded. Why would he care if he didnt want off of the island? And it couldnt be because he felt his friends were dead, because according to you, he already made the choice to let them die without him. Just some food for thought.

[KatesFate]

I doubt profressional divers lose their bottle because of the water hurting them - rather because they would be doing far more completicated dives consisting of pivots and turns. All Hurley would be doing is curling up into a ball and letting gravity do it's thing. I doubt it would hurt at all..I doubt it hurt Sawyer and he has less padding.

For the record, if you jumped into that water from that height without executing a perfect dive and going straight in, it would hurt like ****! Its like hitting cement!

Re: sharks - since when has Sawyer been afraid of sharks? He couldn't care less about them in Adrift and so I think he got over that fear..or at the very least, the sharks didn't even enter his mind..they wouldn't have entered my mind if i were him..i'd be more worried about getting out a-sap so that I wasn't too far away to swim back to the island. And again..the odds of survival were stacked in the direction of jumping out..so I'd say that would counter-balance any slight thought that he would have given to sharks.

I have to agree with Roc here. Sawyer didnt have time to think of sharks when he made that jump. The thought of sharks probably never even crossed his mind until he found himself alone swimming in the ocean after about 10 minutes.

[Miss Austen]

When I mentioned the sharks, I didn't mean that Sawyer thought of Sharks and jumped in anyhow! I was saying from my point of view it was a brave act because it wasn't impossible that Sawyer could have come across a shark/sharks in that ocean after diving in. Sharks are attracted to noise and splashing.

Remember the Indianapolis incident....

In Harm's Way: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis and the Extraordinary Story of Its Survivors, by Doug Stanton


Just re-watched the episode where Ben tries to encourage Sawyer to have someone in his life when he shows him the other island and cons him with the fake pacemaker and the bunny. I have to say this was one occasion where Ben was seemingly being cruel to be kind. Hope I've made your day Roc!

[KatesFate]

When I mentioned the sharks, I didn't mean that Sawyer thought of Sharks and jumped in anyhow! I was saying from my point of view it was a brave act because it wasn't impossible that Sawyer could have come across a shark/sharks in that ocean after diving in. Sharks are attracted to noise and splashing.

Ya, I know what you're saying. Thats why I thought it could have definitly crossed his mind as he was swimming. Plus hes a pretty tasty morsel!!!

[Miss Austen]

I'll agree with you that he's a tasty morsel!

Just watched an episode from Season 3 and Sawyer started getting nice even in Season 3. Remember when the Others were going to kill him in front of Kate and he kept telling Kate to close her eyes. He also told Kate he loved her and I'm pretty sure he meant it. So Sawyer has been getting nicer for some time - long before Season 4. To hear us all discussing this topic you'd think Sawyer's transformation took place suddenly but it's been a gradual process.

[KatesFate]

I agree. It has progressed slowly over time. There is a reason he is still on the island and I cant wait to find out why. Im more curious about those left behind than I am about the fate of the 06.