Ah, I Love Ben.

[D-Roc]

I didn't quite notice this first time around, but Ben was actually crying as he struggled with the wheel. it was amazing..one of the best scenes ever. He literally struggled to turn the wheel - a great metaphor for his entire arc. I love the fact that before he began turning he basically gave Jacob the finger..looking up as if to praise 'God', he swiftly said "I hope you're happy now, Jacob". Wow, powerful stuff and I really got alot from that one line..the look of resentment yet freedon on Ben's face..it really helped me to further understand the relationship between them. What will Locke have to face, i wonder. Will he get along better with jacob? Ben seems to think so - citing Locke's intuitive nature - "you'll find your way..you always do" (loved that line btw) - as being an advantage.

I feel that ben was very self-depreciating though..too much so. I mean he did a great job and he was always willing to accept his short comings..always. I think he largely hinted at his fertility mission when he told Locke that he'll be more able to seperate emotional ties with the priorities. This ties back in with Alpert's season 3 talk to Locke about Ben wasting their time on "novelties". A bit harsh considering Ben's "novelty" was directly related to his scarred memories of killing his mom at birth. memories which were manifested by his rotton father. No wonder fathers need to go in this show.

I just loved how Ben scurried around getting things ready for the islands moving..clearly Ben had accepted his fate in Cabin Fever..or perhaps The shape of Things to Come once he lost his daughter. Yet still he was so helpful..guinding John along the way and showing him how it's down. Have to allow Ben his little "I always have a plan, John" - he deserved that piece of oneupmanship after all jacob put him through and after all the thanks he got.

Speaking of which, I was most intrigued with his interaction with Alpert - I LOVED that scene..I still can't tell whether Alpert was sad with the know;ledge that Ben was stepping down as his leader, or whether he as unhappy at having to do one last thing for him? Well acted on both parts..their relationship always did seem strained post-jungle meeting.

Another great scene was Ben sanctioning the freeing of Sayid and Kate. The look on Kate's face was one of appreciation and bemusement. lol Kate, the man keeps his word. It was also prefaced by Kate cutting Ben's hands free with Keamy's bloody knife - a great metaphor if ever there was one.

Back to the donkeywheel - wow, Ben's face as he pushed that cog..tears streaming down his face and the sound of him wailing..then just as he transferred through the 'portal' he closed his eyes, as if to say 'at last..it's over..'.

Man, that's one of my favourite scenes ever..as a Ben fan, i've struggled in there with him, fighting his corner and having his back whilst many (who now see him in a better light) threw scorn on us..It was if I too was relieved that his tenor was done..I too closed my eyes.

I love you Ben..see you on the other side my man

[D-Roc]

I also think he looks so cute in his little coat. Bless him.

[Malion]

Sure, you chastise Sawyer for killing one man that he's been intent to kill his entire life...

But, you don't seem to mind Ben basically killing 50 people and not even caring.

[lost-lover]

Lol, excellent example of double standards there.

To the point though, I loved this scene. Actually I loved all the Ben scene's in these episodes, the guy was just brilliant. I too, couldn't read his meeting with Alpert at all, I just didn't know what to make of it. Alpert seems happy enough for Locke to take over though.

I'm slightly curious though, that even though Ben's no longer the Other's leader and was, presumably, told by Jacob that he can't go back to the island because he moved it, he's trying to get back in the flashforwards? So will Ben only be allowed back the rest of them, I'm wondering whther or not he's manipulating their circumstances to help him achieve his on ends? Why change the habit of a lifetime, eh?

[D-Roc]

I'll come back to this soon when i have more time.

But i should crucially point out that Ben didn't murder over 50 people - the only person he murdered was his father. Seeing as Sawyer and others have been let off for multiple crimes I think the double standards lie not with me nor Ben.

The Dharma purge was not Ben's decision, remember..nor did he partake in the purging - that's pretty much canon..

If you were refering about Ben's "so?" regarding the peeps on the boat, let me ask you..Keamy has just killed your daughter..brutally executed her with a bullet to the head and left her body to rot. you've had to bury said daughter and her blood is still fresh on your hands. Jacob has just shafted you and Keamy is proceeding to taunt you over his execution of your beloved daughter. Now..would you really give two scoops about people on the boat - some of which are Widmore's people out to harm you/the island, and the rest who are too blind too see the bigger picture and watched as Jack pounded your butt into the ground 20 odd days ago?

Sorry, I can totally understand Ben's repsonse here - at that moment in time he was enraged over Keamy's taunts..who in their right mind would not be too enraged to be selfless as that point? I don't think I would have been in th right state of mind to be thinking about Losties who don't give two hoots about my dead daughter..

also, we should be giving Ben credit for actually turning around and apologising for not being able to seperate emotion from logical decisions.

We've all had fits of rage and then turned around and regretted it - Ben's jsut had the most extreme things happen to him..surely we can let him off not putting the boat first. Also, he did alot of good for Sayid and Kate in this episode - yet I don't see anyone championing him. he also helped Locke and fulfilled his final duties with great courage and dignity..imagine what it must have been like for him to have Jacob toss him to one side..imagine what it feels like for a kitten staring down the headlights on an open road. Ben was basically kicked out of his own house - abandoned without a word of thanks or see you on the other side. He didn't know where he would end up upon turning that wheel, as it was he ended up in Tunisia and had to immediately fight for his life, after puking his poor little guts up. The man is a warrior..he deserves much more credit that he's been given. he's emerged from the season as the silent hero, the man who's done all the work for Locke, the man who's acted with grace and dignity, the man who's suffered immense heart-arch and loss, the man who's been cast aside..the man who was right all along..the man who you all doubted. Yet here he is, still fighting the good fight..rounding up his children as he prepares to take them back home to the promised land.

This is a man who has his flaws, but who doesn't? He has blood on his hands..but who doesn't? This is a man who did his best to minimise the impact on innocents..it was not his fault that Widmore changed the rules. Whilst Widmore swans about like butter wouldn't melt, Ben has had his only child cut from his heart..he put the island first and look what he got in return.

Wouldn't this spark revenge and a momentary loss of composure and perspective in any man, woman or child? Did you not want to see Keamy pay for what he did to my Ben and your Losties? Are we not on the same side? Should we not be beating down Widmore's door and hanging him from the rafters?

We are not the enemy guys...THEY are.

Did our people not let yours go? do we not have common interests?

Let us give Ben his rightful praise and support him, because he represents our only hope of getting back to the island..of saving the island. Let not our personal squabbles blind us of our united destiny.

These are toubled times, and in such times we need a leader such as Ben to show us the way. let us praise him and button up his jacket so thathe stays warm and snug. Let us kiss him on the cheek at night and bring him hot coco.



In all seriousness I made some genuine points..

And I can't understand the 'double standards' claim. Sawyer, for instance didn't kill a man who killed his parents..Ben did. Ben had greater excuse because he didn't kill an "innocent" like Cooper or Duckett, did he.

*Anyway, i don't want to bash Sawyer..him and I are doing good right now, I don't want to destabilise our fragile relationship.

As I said, just a brief reply for now..i'll be back

[lost-lover]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

I'll come back to this soon when i have more time.

But i should crucially point out that Ben didn't murder over 50 people - the only person he murdered was his father. Seeing as Sawyer and others have been let off for multiple crimes I think the double standards lie not with me nor Ben.

Okay, I'll leave Sawyer out of the debate for now, it's easier to focus on Ben.

Originally Posted by D-Roc

The Dharma purge was not Ben's decision, remember..nor did he partake in the purging - that's pretty much canon..

This purge argument just keeps coming back.
I'd like to remind about the Tempest, which we know Ben has used before to kill people. Back to the Dharma purge, even if Ben did not actively partake in the purge, he knew of it and did nothing to save any of the Dharma members, even his buddy Annie. He was also happy to use it to get involved with the Others. Pretty cold-blooded, really.

Originally Posted by D-Roc

If you were refering about Ben's "so?" regarding the peeps on the boat, let me ask you..Keamy has just killed your daughter..brutally executed her with a bullet to the head and left her body to rot. you've had to bury said daughter and her blood is still fresh on your hands. Jacob has just shafted you and Keamy is proceeding to taunt you over his execution of your beloved daughter. Now..would you really give two scoops about people on the boat - some of which are Widmore's people out to harm you/the island, and the rest who are too blind too see the bigger picture and watched as Jack pounded your butt into the ground 20 odd days ago?

Okay fair enough, he'd not be thinking straight. But I still don't think he can use Alex's death to cover for letting so many people die. True, many of the people on the freighter work for Widmore and therefore wanted to capture him. But Keamy was the main mecenary after him and Ben had just killed him, not to mention the group Keamy had brought with him to the island. Surely that eliminate's a rather immediate part of the threat?
I can understand that, despite that, he'd still want the man who killed his daughter to die, but it was callous of him, after Locke pointing out what would happen to the freighter and it's inhabitants, to just "So?" and leave them to their fate. That's really remorseful, Ben!

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Sorry, I can totally understand Ben's repsonse here - at that moment in time he was enraged over Keamy's taunts..who in their right mind would not be too enraged to be selfless as that point? I don't think I would have been in the right state of mind to be thinking about Losties who don't give two hoots about my dead daughter..

also, we should be giving Ben credit for actually turning around and apologising for not being able to seperate emotion from logical decisions.

We've all had fits of rage and then turned around and regretted it - Ben's jsut had the most extreme things happen to him..surely we can let him off not putting the boat first.

See above for my reply to this.

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Also, he did alot of good for Sayid and Kate in this episode - yet I don't see anyone championing him. He also helped Locke and fulfilled his final duties with great courage and dignity..imagine what it must have been like for him to have Jacob toss him to one side..imagine what it feels like for a kitten staring down the headlights on an open road. Ben was basically kicked out of his own house - abandoned without a word of thanks or see you on the other side. He didn't know where he would end up upon turning that wheel, as it was he ended up in Tunisia and had to immediately fight for his life, after puking his poor little guts up. The man is a warrior..he deserves much more credit that he's been given. he's emerged from the season as the silent hero, the man who's done all the work for Locke, the man who's acted with grace and dignity, the man who's suffered immense heart-arch and loss, the man who's been cast aside..the man who was right all along..the man who you all doubted. Yet here he is, still fighting the good fight..rounding up his children as he prepares to take them back home to the promised land.

Sure, Ben did good helping out Kate and Sayid, letting them go from the island, but I can't help notice he showed no remorse when he knew they were heading to the freighter he'd just let explode.
I can't really argue with him helping Locke either, that was very good of him, he just seemed to except it, then again he's known for a while I guess, since the visit to Jacob's house, so he's had time to get used to the idea.
About his "rounding up the children" - nice wording by the way - I'm not sure about this being him "fighting the good fight" in the flashforward. As I've said in my previous post, I can't help but wonder whether or not, whatwith Locke being dead, if Ben is hoping to reclaim leadership of the Others. After being told by Jacob that he can't go back to the island because he was the one who moved it, is he still allowed back?I'm of the view that Ben will only be allowed back if he returns with all of the Losties, dead or alive, who have left. I can't help but think that he's justmanipulating their circumstances. Jack's having a breakdown, Sayid's now Ben's assassin, Hurley's having chess games with the island's victims, Kate and Aaron are living a lie, and I think Sun may be working with him too. So why not just take the ones who want to go back, rather than trick the relucant ones into coming along too? Does he need them if he is to achieve his of returning? After all, leopards don't change their spots.
That'll do for now.

[monster-eats-pilot]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

I also think he looks so cute in his little coat. Bless him.

Roco you have a serious problem

[master-casanova]

Excuse me but
Although that comment was disturbing at best
lol
x

[D-Roc]

LL, i'll have to reply to your post later

Originally Posted by monster-eats-pilot

Roco you have a serious problem

Aww! But it has a hood:

Originally Posted by master-casanova

Excuse me but
Although that comment was disturbing at best
lol
x

Ah, but you just don't know me.

We all make disturbing posts every now and then

lol x

[master-casanova]

Very true
You more than others Roco but s'all good

now watch this drive
x

[monster-eats-pilot]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Aww! But it has a hood:
Attachment 168

Would you like me to buy you one?

Man I'd hate to be Ben and meet you down a dark alley...

[master-casanova]

I would like you to buy me one please
il buy you a certain scotish man, delivered to you in a box
x