Official ABC 4.13 There's No Place Like Home (Parts 2 & 3) Discussion Thread

[D-Roc]

SEASON 4 EPISODE 13:
"THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE HOME"
PARTS 2 & 3

This is the official discussion thread for Episode 4.13. This episode was shown on ABC on 29th May 2008.

Writers:
Darlton

Director:
Jack Bender

Centric:
The Oceanic Six

Synopsis

The Oceanic 6 finally escape the Island. In the future, the identity of the body in the coffin is revealed.

This thread has been created so that you can post and discuss all of your reviews, observations and general thoughts and opinions on this episode. However, please feel free to start a NEW thread in this 4.13 forum if you have something specfic from this episode that you would like to discuss or raise - This is encouraged..you are not limited to only posting in this thread - this thread is simply a general port of call for general episode opinions or reviews. Go out there and post threads on aspects or thoughts which you want to raise independetly of this thead!

If you have a theory based on this episode or events within it, you can head over to the Theories & Speculation section to post it - we'd love to thrash out ideas with you!

=======

Thread Status: Opened

[Lauren [is Lost]]

WOW. All i can say right now is OH MY GOD!!! I am stunned!! That was possibly the best 2 hours of television ever. Oh my god! I dont even know where to start. I'll be back later when i've digested it all...

[Murg]

Really good stuff, yes, though I'm not sure how many of the promised answers we genuinely received. Maybe one?

- Jack's pretty blind to think there's genuinely nothing odd about the island; Locke's equally blind to say 'miracles happen' without noticing that more often than not they're really, really horrible miracles (magic cancer anyone?)
- On Jack's side though, he gets about a thousand points more than Locke for lying in order to save the lives of the people left behind rather than to save the blithering island, and Locke loses countless for having the temerity to blame Jack for whatever happened next ... Ben seemed happy enough to let him leave.
- Poor Jin. Ben doesn't kill the innocent my foot.
- One moment that totally epitomised the theory of information-giving in Lost. Ben asks Locke if he told Jack what they were doing; Locke says 'I tried to'. Drivel! He tried to convince him to stay on the island - he said nothing about moving it. That's why bad things happen.
- I love how this programme becames 100% about Desmond every time he has a significant scene. I was so relieved - that was the most moving reunion scene Lost's ever had, I think. Aside from their phonecall.
- Hasn't Walt grown?
- I'm glad Keamy's dead, though it shouldn't have happened like that, with so many other people getting caught in the middle.
- Why is Claire so adamant that Aaron mustn't go back?
- I weirdly enjoyed the Orchid scenes with Ben loading up the vault, even though two of my least favourite characters were involved. It was old-style comic Lost.
- But the best scene was realising Hurley had been playing chess with Eko's ghost.

In conclusion, I hope Sawyer gets hero of the week for this one. That was properly magnificent of him. Oh! And Michael, but I still find it hard to think very well of Michael. And I hope everyone hates Ben. Yeah, right, that'll happen .... (That said, I hope whatever Ben's planning will help the people who are left on the island - I wonder who's after them exactly? Or what? - though this episode really didn't give me much hope for Ben's concerns for random people back on the island. 'So?' etc. I think he's motivated much as Locke is ... he wants the island, not the people.)

[TheDharmaShark]

I'd have thought the biggest mystery was, where the bloody hell did the Island go?

[Murg]

Originally Posted by TheDharmaShark

I'd have thought the biggest mystery was, where the bloody hell did the Island go?

I edited that: I accidentally ran two points together then forgot what the first one was going to be! I think probably the genuinely biggest mystery is how time/space travel ultimately comes into play.

[TheDharmaShark]

However it comes into play, it'll be confusing no doubt lol.

I'm assuming as well that Faraday and the Zodiac 'moved' along with the Island, as they were nowhere to be seen after the Island vanished.

That being said, the only thing I can think about is what happens with Locke?

[Murg]

Originally Posted by TheDharmaShark

However it comes into play, it'll be confusing no doubt lol.

I'm assuming as well that Faraday and the Zodiac 'moved' along with the Island, as they were nowhere to be seen after the Island vanished.

That being said, the only thing I can think about is what happens with Locke?

Yes, I assume the island encompasses a certain amount of the surrounding water, so I'm guessing that's where Daniel and co are. I hope so anyway.

I want to know where the threat's coming from - the obvious answer is that Widmore's orchestrating it, but then he doesn't even know where the island is now. So what are the bad things that are happening (worse that what happened before??!!) ? Is this more to do with fate's having been broken ... course correction? Time-dilation? The sickness? And weren't we supposed to find out more about that irritating woman from Desmond's first time-travelling stint?

[Lauren [is Lost]]

Lol Murg...i wonder how Roco is planning on sticking up for Ben this time

[Murg]

I'm assuming, by the way, that Sun wants Ben dead - if that's the case, how did she learn about Ben's role in Jin's death? I wonder if she had a visit from 'Jeremy Bentham' as well. I can't think how else she would've found out.

[firebreathingfishies]

Oh my god!

I think I nearly wet my pants about 10 times during those 2 hours (well technically 3 - i watched all three parts together so they kind of merged, sorry if i mention stuff from part 1 ). I got a little hysterical when Sawyer jumped out the helicopter, i felt a bit like Beachy and was even more hysterical when I thought Desmond drowned And at the end there... my God I nearly had a brain-explosion.

I can't wait until 2009. Just no. No no no

*gets hysterical*

[D-Roc]

There's No Place Like Home (Parts 2 & 3) Wow..not sure what to make of that - much of it expected, the rest surreal.

This was one seriously different episode..in many ways it was a comglomoration of the previous 12 episodes - sci-fi, comedy, emotional investment, relationships, power, politics, conspiracy..every major season 4 element was squeezed in.

My gut reaction all the way through was great episode, but not as good as last season. If 4.12 was a season finale set-up, this was a season 5 set-up.

And that's the thing, my initial opinions of this episode are disjointed, because the episode contained so many themes - more than any other episode before it in my opinion.

I didn't like some of the writing..it was predictable in places and too reactionary in spots. In other places it was amazing - taking out Team Keam after 12 minutes was a master-stroke, and what a scene..such brave and fearless 'Others' - the new heroes of the show..how people are regretting ever bashing them, huh? I guess the words told and you and so, spring to mind (I deserve that after all the stick us Others got).

The Orchid scenes were some of the best - Locke/Jack, Ben/Locke, Keamy/Ben/Locke - fantastic stuff, even if the Keamy ressurection was rather 'Naomi-ish', the old Charlotte-bullt-proof-vest ploy was acceptable. I can completely understand Ben's actions in this episode - although I fear that people will predicably bash him, ready to jump on any less than perfect reaction from the great man. I would point to Sawyer's murder of Cooper and remind those people that Ben's reaction re: killing Keamy was very similar, if not more raw (and hence understandable/excusable), consdering his daughter's blood hasn't even dried yet, and considering Keamy actually killed his daughter whereas Cooper was a mere bystander in the whole Sawyer's mom affair. People will probably point to Ben's "So?" as a reason to bash him..I would pre-empt this with Sawyer's "everyman for himself". That's the thing, Ben has just had his daughter murdered by this man - what would you have done, had you seen the whites of eyes of the man who just murdered your little girl? Ben, ever the gentleman and scholer, later explained his actions..which were in his own words a moment of madness..and heaven help him he's allowed that..he clearly wasn't thinking rationally and I hope people are able to understand this.

As for Sayid - he owes Alpert one. But well done on topping last seasons neck-breaker move.

Kevin Duran - top actor, he so owned the role of Keamy..so destable a character but such a grand performance.

Jack - so defiant, so proud, so stubborn, such a turn-around (in the end). Speaking of turn arounds, I like what they did with the 3.23 ending, by extending it. Disappointed I didn't see that coming, because it's just the type of things that Darlton would do. It was good to see Evi really act in this episode, I thought she was excellent - totally convincing and one of her best performances yet imho. Kate's contempt for Jack's willingness to go back was really given more substance and I'm glad they showed us Kate's reasoning..and somewhere down the line she does kinda make sense. As I once said, you can't pick and choose, Jack - you gotta make sure you make the right choice and do what you're supposed to do. Nevertheless, one can't help think that them leaving the island was all part of the chain of events..this island is an ambigious character..and still we cannot distinguish between island and Jacob. Disappointing, but i'll wait.

Walt - goodness me! Has it really only been 2 years or has MDK been taking the exact opposite of what Alpert's on? The lad is now a man. Great to see him back though - I've always loved Walt..and it was great to see him link up with his ole buddy Hurls. I hope that we'll see more of him, as mythology-wise he had so much potential..potential that needs explaining..

Speaking of Waalt. Michael, my beloved Michael. So brave..so sad to think that his life was only extended so that he could extend the lives of others..kinda makes you wonder about the chain of events and the fickality of 'destiny'. Good touch to have Christian show up before he died - knew that would happen and would have been disppointed in Darlton had they led that one go. What i'm most sad about re: Michael is the fact that he was never given the rightful credit by the fans - so eager to overlook his believeable story and worthwhile story - there are so many bad dad's in Lost..so many terrible fathers - Paik, Widmore, Shepherd snr, Ford snr to name a few - yet the one golden father, the one man who loves his son so intensely that he would do anything for him..well, what a shame that more people can't appreciate that. If Desmond and Penny's story was tragically beautiful, then Michael and walt's story was beautfiully tragic.

Speaking of which, Jin. I dunno what to say - I'm hoping that somehow he is still alive..we didn't 'see' him die (nor Michael for that matter..although Mike's message was one of obvious completion) so who knows? Sun's response was so very heart-wrenching, so believeable. Also good to have confirmation that Jack is the other man who she holds responsible..or is it Widmore? Long con?

Sawyer..wasn't feeling him as much as I was in the last episode, but it's good to see the man heading back towards something of an even kiel. Very selfless of him to do what he did by jumping out of the chopper, but at the same time i think he had Ben's words ringing in his ears - "in the real world, you'll never be able to compete with a first-class surgeon". Still brave of him, but it made every bit of sense for him NOT to leave the island..what did he have to go back for? A Kate and Jack wedding..did the right thing dude.

Loved Juliet's reaction to the boat blowing up - you get the feeling that she kinda knew things wouldn't work out the moment she said 'thankyou' to Faraday (whats become of him and the redshirts btw?). It's a shame however, that season 3's breakout performer (after Ben) was hardly involved in season 4. She had some good moments, but her centric was by far the most forgettable (of this season) and she didn't have enough 'meat' this season - she was surpassed by Kate and Sun in that department..not necessarily performance-wise..but stuff to do-wise.

I hoped we'd see more of The Others - although it was great to see them await their new leader. Locke's arcs in this show know no bounds..he is constantly reinvented, no wonder he's an "everyman". I like that he was uncertain over what to do and how to lead his new people..but I also like the fact that he relishes the challenge..just the glint in his eye and the cut of his wicked smile was enough to suggest as much. However, I loved Ben's gentlemanly handshake - the guy is pure gold. There's was so much weight attached to it though - I kinda got the feeling that Ben feels sorry for John..Ben knows what Locke is going to have to go through..and perhaps what he has been through - did moving the island shed more light on both Alpert's 4.11 "which of these belongs to you already?" and Locke's seeming 'death' at the end of this episode? This is why i'm not sweating on Locke being dead. I could over-dramatise my feelings, but i wont - it's not necessary..just as it wasn't when the hatch blew up at the end of season 2. Locke isn't done, not by a long shot. His character is so attached with the themes of 'time-loops' and 'reincarnation' (see rebirth) that there's no chance he's done. Also..picture this. A deceased Christian Shepherd lands on the island in season 1..4 seasons later and his character is seemingly set to play a massive role in the end-game of the show..Ben tells Jack that they need to bring Locke back to the island..any guessing that one possible premise is that he will '(re)awake' ala Christian, once back on "craphole"? Who knows, but that's the thing - there are 3 or 4 solid angles that they could take - each of them involve John being alive in some shape or form come season 5.

Something I didn't see coming was Charlotte having been born on the island - it helps explain her jubilation and discovering the island relics and her excitement upon landing on the island. As for who she is in the grand scheme of things...i'm thinking a DeGroot daughter, or perhaps Horiss' spawn or something? Hoping not to hear the 'it's Annie' claims. Like Ben would shoot Annie.

Des and Penny - so lovely to see it end well for them - not as emotionally engaging as I was willing it to be, but it still packed a punch and wasn't overly forced - I appreicate that. That said, the game is probably done for Des now. Despite having the 'time-travel' device still attached to his character and the fact that Widmore is Pen's dad, I just can't see any reason to bring him back into the show as a central character. He was never supposed to last this long and they have done well to craft an engaging story-arc into an already planned narrative. To extend his arc centrally would undo so much of the good work that has gone into the last 2 Desmond seasons. As Vincent would say, let sleeping dogs rest. See you in another life Des, and thanks for the beauty.

Which effectively means 3 of my favourite characters gone from the show - and no, I refuse to include Locke in that.

Back to Ben - what can i say? that last scene with Jack, I so thought that he was a manifestation and that the real Ben was dead inside the coffin. They deffo suggested as much, as they made him so 'ghost-like', what with his bleak face and manifestationesque appearing from the shadows. I also thought 'Cazimir-effect', in that we'd now have two Ben's - one dead, one alive.

I loved his final 'F-U' to Jacob..before he turned the wheel and initiated another purple-ish sky. Speaking of which, it was great to see another layer to this island..it's something which I'm most interested in going into next season. Oh and I love Ben's line about the Orchid being "deep" - M.E has such great timing, I just adore that man, he cracks me up. No-one else in the show could make me laugh with such restraint and composure being the main traits of their performance. Good to see old Marvin Hallowhatever again. Had to laugh at the 6 of 6 on the Orientation video..it seems llike we've seen a dozen of those films now..we've certainly seen about a dozen stations! Also note the automatic rewinding of the tape - not a gimmick i'm sure..pretty convinced this was a subtle nod to some of the themes which will (and perhaps already have) played out on the show - flash-forwards/back..time-loops..etc. It's also interesting to see that Ben's ending up in Tunisia and his subsequent travel to Iraq takes place immediately from this point - so we kinda saw some of season 5 already. Sweet. Serioously though, this is perhaps one of the most interesting factors from the episode, as we have pure unadulterated time-travel..and not of the consciousness-kind. Physical and total time-travel..Ben going from point 'A' - 2004/5..to point 'B' 2005. The way his last island scene in this episode overlaps with his flash-forward scene in 'The Shape of Things to Come', is quite exciting for me..it brings together so much of what i've been predicting for years now. It's also clever of them to preface Ben's future..rather like they did for Jack and Kate in last seasons finale.

As I said at the top of this entry - I really enjoyed the episode..although if i'm being honest I thought it would do more..I dunno, maybe I just need to watch it again, but whereas Cabin Fever, for example had me instantly hooked, this one had me waiting for something..i'm not sure what..i can't quite put my finger on it. However, i'm not going to bash the eppy as it was still one of the best, though certainly not the best of the season, considering it had two hours on the rest - perhaps that's what hurt it?

Oh, almost forgot, it was good when Hugo referenced Mr. Eko - a nice moment..not too forced..just nice to give recognition to a true great, y'know.

So yeah, I guess that's it for another year..the focus now turns to the battle to return to the island..just writing that sent a shivver up my spine...I will wait patiently for my favourite show ever to return, but I look forward to seeing the gang return in 09.

What a journey this show has turned into..i'm amazed with the level of skill and excution that these guys pull off a story (actors, crew and writers/producers). The directions that this show has taken - some predicted, some simply unimaginable..when I think back to that first episode and the poorely translated premise of an 'adventure island show', man am I glad I buckled in on that fateful day, because I pity those who do not know what a magical show this is.

I'd like to extend my virtual thanks to all at Bad Robot and Team Darlton for a great ride

I'll see you next year Benny-boo and Johnykins (i'll miss them..stay warm Ben!!)