Which of these things belong to you now?

[KatesFate]

First of all, how great is it that Richard is back? How cool is it that he was a part of Locke's life as a child? What I don't understand is why Locke wouldn't remember him. Or does he?

In the scene where Richard lays down several items and asks Locke to tell him which of them belong to him already, it seemed obvious to me by Richards expressions that the first two items Locke chose were correct. He chose the vial of ? (looked like the ash around Jacob's cabin to me) and the compass. It wasn't until he chose the knife that it became clear that he chose wrong.

The other items layed out were a baseball glove, a Book of Laws, and a comic book called Mystery Tales with a story about a hidden island. I think that John was suppose to pick the Book of Laws. Not only because of Richard's reaction when John glanced at it, but also because of the whole game playing thing and Ben proclaiming that Widmore "changed the rules". I think the Book of Laws could be the laws of the island and the rules for protecting it.

[firebreathingfishies]

Yeah that was really interesting They items already belong to him? Does that mean he's like... someone reincarnated? Like someone from the island or something?
I doubt Locke would remember him seeing as really he only met him that once. But I think he was meant to pick the comic book, because Alpert looked happy that he was looking in that direction, up until he picked up the knife. My heart broke for mini-Locke though when Alpert snatched the knife off him. He looked all
Was that compass the same one he had in season 1 that he gave to Sayid? If it was, how did he get it?

[D-Roc]

This was one of my favourite scenes of Lost ever. I agree with you KF - it appeared that Locke was "supposed" to choose the vile of ash and the book of Laws..perhaps both..as you said, it wasn't until he chose the knife that richard's expression soured. I think this all ties in with the things that our Losties are "supposed" to do and "not supposed" to do - a big theme in Lost over the past season or so. It's almost as if Richard was seeing if Locke was 'ready' - did he have something to do with Locke's arrival into the world? Seems likely..I'd even suggest that maybe..just maybe Richard is Locke's 'real' father - afterall, Emily's mom made reference to the father being 'twice her age' - another age reference relating to Richard? Another idea I had is that Locke was switched at birth - where did they take him, and was Apert involved in a swtcheroo? Eitherway, it does seem likely that Locke was a Mittelos baby, who was 'desinted' for greatness..

What also interests me in relation to this scene is that Alpert seemed fairly happy with several of young John's selections - could he have chosen more than one item..do several of these items belong to him?

Here's an illustrative breakdown of the scene:

Baseball Glove - Redsox allusion - is this Jack's future??


Book of Laws - Laws relating to the island??


Vile of what seems to be Ash - similar to the Ash around Jacob's cabin in 3.20? - Is this relating to Jacob's future??


"Hidden Land" Comic - an allusion to the 'hidden' island? Is this related to Walt's future?? Walt had a similar comic back in season..


Knife - this would appear to be relating to Locke's future..yet Alpert was displeased with his selection? Why?? Is this becase time is on a loop and Alpert needs Locke to be something 'different' this time around??



----------------------

Alpert's reaction after Locke considers the vile of 'ash'. He looked excited..:


Alpert looks pleased after Locke puts down the compass:


Alpert looks most excited as Locke considers the Book of Laws - was this the choice he was "supposed" to make?:


When Locke chooses the knife, Alpert looks disappointed - Locke has made the wrong choice, despite it seeming to be the most logical choice from a viewers perspective:


As noted, i think that the correct choice according to Alpert was the Book of Laws. I'm wondering whether Locke wasn't supposed to choose the knife because time is on a loop, and Alpert needs Locke to be someone different - i.e. not the hunter than the island (via Eko) told him that he was? Perhaps 'this' time, the island needs Locke to be more of a philosopher, than a hunter?

I'm also wondering whether the other items related to some of our other Losties - Bassball glove to Jack..Comic to Walt..Compass to Sayid..Ash to Jacob?..

Furthermore, I found this interesting - upon thinking back to the brig Alpert tells Locke:

"It's beautiful isn't it? No matter how much time you spend on this island, you just never get tired of this view. We haven't been formally introduced, I'm Richard.........Cause when word got back here that there was a man with a broken spine on the plane who could suddenly walk again, well, people here began to get very excited because that...that could only happen to someone who was extremely special. Ben doesn't want anyone to think you're special, John..........I want for you to find your purpose...and to do that...your father has to go, John. And since you're not gonna do it..."

Note the last paragraph - Alpert wants Locke to find his purpose - isn't this very much what he wanted him to do back as a child in the early 1960's! Alpert has seemingly waited all this time for Locke to find his purpose..shaping him..keeping tabs on him down the years, from childhood, to teenage, to when he broke his spine..helping him to rehabilitate...waiting patiently..

So it seems that Locke was engineered by Mittelos..created for a 'purpose'..or that they somehow knew (through Jacob?) that he would be 'the one'..otherwise why would Alpert have been there at his birth..?

I also think that this aspect of Locke's history is VERY similar to Ben's as a child and the way he was recruited by Alpert..although perhaps Ben's 'specialness' was more of a suprise to Alpert - but i'll add more on that later. Just had t get my initial thoughts out. I think i'll be spending alot of time in this thread!

[D-Roc]

Another great moment from this scene was Alpert noticing Locke's drawing. Now this is surely an allusion to young Locke being able to predict future or events..or perhaps having some trace of 'memory' of the event happening before..in another life?:

Here's Locke's drawing of a pillar of smoke dragging a bald headed man:



Compare to the scene from Exodus Part 1, where The Smoke Monster attempts to drag Locke down a hole:





VERY similar...

As I mentioned, i think the idea is that young Locke was either somehow able to 'see' his future self being dragged by Smokey..or, and possibly more likely, he had some 'memory' of this event happening to him in a 'previous' life - time loops, anyone?

I'm trying to remember whether Walt used to make any drawings? I'm sure someone had some drawings back in season 1 - maybe it was Hurley in the asylum?

I wonder whether young Locke believes that the man in the drawing is him..or whether he doesn't know who it is, and he just had te urge to draw it. I'm also thinking that the inspiration for the drawing may have come to him in a dream - dreams are a massive part of Lost, and I don't think we should overlook the fact that 'adult' Locke experienced another dream in this episode

I say 'dreams'..the drawing looks more like a nightmare doesn't it..speaking of nightmares, I find it interesting that Widmore has been experincing nightmares since her executed Alex.... slight tangent, but i'm just trying to link this together

[Malion]

I personally think the vial had Sand in it... as it was more of a tan colour.
The sand would represent the island. Which, Locke could possibly own.

The comic is interesting, note how the Knife is on top of the comic, rather than beside it. I think that Locke was supposed to look past the knife and read the comic.

Alternatively, look at the man on the cover. The way the knife is on it, it appears that the man is scared of the knife, like he's detering Locke, ever-so-slightly from picking it up.

The book of Laws, I don't think this is what he wanted. That just seems a bit odd. The island, from what we've seen, is fairly lawless.

It's interesting to point out, that, dispite John's age, he is not fazed or even interested in the Comic, or the Baseball Glove. These would be something a young child would choose.

Don't forget, Richard said "Which of these items belongs to you already?" not "Which item belongs to you already?" signifying that John was perhaps supposed to choose more than one thing.

This makes me wonder, did any of the other Losties get this test, and, if they did, what did they choose?

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

"Hidden Land" Comic - an allusion to the 'hidden' island? Is this related to Walt's future?? Walt had a similar comic back in season..

Every object except for the knife is placed directly on the table but the knife is laid on top of the comic, perhaps to suggest that this Hidden Land needs the knife's protection? If the Island's Laws/Morals/Rules needed protecting more than the Island itself, why not place the knife on the Book of Laws?

Or perhaps the knife doesn't signify protection but rather violence and destruction, and Richard wasn't happy that Locke opted for that. I do quite like the idea that Richard has been around (time wise) a lot, and that he might have hoped that Locke's real purpose lay in the oppostie direction of the knife, and that he travelled back in time to see if Locke himself knew this because something may have happened to Locke on the Island to prevent him from fulfilling it...that Locke had had plenty of time with the knife after crashing - to get the Walkabout fantasy out of his system - but had yet to begin on a greater purpose. It's confusing!

Another thing with the knife on the comic could always be the position of it, in that the blade is pointing at Locke rather than the handle. I remember some theories/observations from way back in S1 when Locke was dishing out the knives to people and would make efforts to ensure whether it was blade or handle he offered (like with Sayid before he tortured Sawyer it was initially offered blade first but Locke did a nifty little flick to turn it around to the handle.) If you're offering a kid the opportunity to pick up a knife, is it not an initital thought to make sure the handle is nearest him not only to minimise any danger from it, but to make it less threatening?

This really was such a great scene - nice and confusing once you start to have a good think about it - but still great. And bless Young Locke with that foster family to put up with!

If Richard really didn't think Locke had what it took, why then try and contact him again when he was a teenager? Maybe Richard is just a good actor and Young Locke really was supposed to take the knife, so Richard pretended that he had failed just to see what Locke would be like growing up in the 'real world' without his influence...to see if his assessment - his correct assessment - of Locke being special was correct.

Locke doesn't pick up the glove, yet when he's a teenager speaking with his teacher he tells him that he loves sports, and denies any interest in science. Which he is probably lying about, because Locke has just said that it's things like Science Camp that result him getting trapped in his locker.

So he really does like Science but does his best to pursade others - to pursade himself - that he doesn't, because it will give him an easier life. Which you can't blame him for after all.

Or maybe he really does like sports and non-science things but he's just good - very good - at science, and as much as he tries to deny it such natural talent just comes through. And while he may be a Scientist he doesn't consider himself one, because that would be to define himself as something - as someone - he consiously doesn't want to be, and given his life even up until that relatively young age, who can blame him for wanting some control in his life to choose what to do and where to belong? Maybe he's not a Scientist in the typical lab coat and chemical experiments type, but more like a Natural Scientist - a biologist or something with a natural and powerful affinity with nature. Maybe that's why the Island cured him, and locked into that 2% chance he had of ever getting the feeling back in his legs?

Very interesting things to consider! And is just further proof that Locke is the heart of the show and is special and wonderful and destined for great things

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Note the last paragraph - Alpert wants Locke to find his purpose - isn't this very much what he wanted him to do back as a child in the early 1960's! Alpert has seemingly waited all this time for Locke to find his purpose..shaping him..keeping tabs on him down the years, from childhood, to teenage, to when he broke his spine..helping him to rehabilitate...waiting patiently..

So it seems that Locke was engineered by Mittelos..created for a 'purpose'..or that they somehow knew (through Jacob?) that he would be 'the one'..otherwise why would Alpert have been there at his birth..?

I can't really think of any reason (well at the moment) to explain Richard's patient waiting at Locke's birth other than he knew that Locke would be born there, either because Mittelos did have a hand in creating him, or perhaps Richard was just at the hospital on the lookout for some future test subjects and happened by chance across Locke, to a lesser extent he did with Ben?

Maybe Richard patiently waited for Locke through all of his pathetic little life because, as Locke himself said, struggle is nature's way of stengthening? Perhaps Locke had to go though all of what he did to truly appreciate the Island when he landed there, and so become more open - more amenable - to its influences and more likely to be open minded as to everything that happened on it? I reckon Richard knew Locke was special and someone needed for the Island from his birth or after the test, and may have wanted to see how Locke got on in the real world. Or maybe all that bad luck in his life was punishment for failing Richard's object test! Poor John...

[KatesFate]

I personally think the vial had Sand in it... as it was more of a tan colour.
The sand would represent the island. Which, Locke could possibly own.

Good point. I immediatly thought it might be ash because of Jacob's Cabin, but it very well could have been sand.

Every object except for the knife is placed directly on the table but the knife is laid on top of the comic, perhaps to suggest that this Hidden Land needs the knife's protection? If the Island's Laws/Morals/Rules needed protecting more than the Island itself, why not place the knife on the Book of Laws?

I noticed this too. He did seem to lay the items out in a particular order and fashion. Maybe his choices determined whether he is a man of science or a man of faith. The knife on top of the island comic could represent faith. Faith that the island must be protected at all costs. The Book of Laws would represent Science. Now, by choosing the knife, this could point to him being a Man of Faith, which we all presume he is. However, didn't the teacher point out to Locke that he is a scientist and would never be a superhero? I know that I'm rambling now, but I think I am on to something, I am just not sure what. I could just be really tired seeing as how I've been up since 4:30 this morning and it's now 11:30. LOL

I am going to have to think about all of this for a while. Fantastic scene and a lot to wrap my head around this late at night.

[Kiowa Warrior]

Yeah the knife on top of the comic could represent faith: faith that you will be able, by using the knife and your wits, to defend the island against that which threatens it. And the Book of Laws could be what, social science or something?

It's interesting that people tend to tell Locke what he is but he fights for the opposite, like him believing the knife is his but being told that it's not, or his teacher telling him that he's a scientist but him saying he prefers sports, or Eddie telling him he's a farmer while Locke argues that he is in fact a hunter.

Is Locke really all of the things that various people label him as but, for the very reason that he's been labelled them - that he's heard people say they know him and what's best for him - he fights to be the opposite, because he really doesn't like people telling him what to do? That he feels like he should have more of a say as to who he really is, and so goes out of his way to prove that you can chose your own path no matter what others say?

Or maybe they're all wrong and Locke has always been what he argues himself to be, and he's just fighting the good fight against others who will try and steer him in a direction that they believe he should go in, but one which he knows is not his true path.
Or then again maybe it's a mixture of both!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Malion

I personally think the vial had Sand in it... as it was more of a tan colour.
The sand would represent the island. Which, Locke could possibly own.

Sand? That's interesting. Although wouldn't some grass and soil be thrown in there if it was a representation of the island? Although perhaps sand could represent 'time' - in the way that this does: ??

I still think it's ash (relating to the ash around Jacob's cabin), but sand is a good shout and something to think about.

The comic is interesting, note how the Knife is on top of the comic, rather than beside it. I think that Locke was supposed to look past the knife and read the comic.

Yes, this is extremly interesting. Interesting suggestion - since the knife was afterall the 'wrong' choice and the comic is called "Hidden Land" - perhaps the knife represents a 'threat' to the islands safety/invisibility (so to speak)?

I guess the knife isn't a hunting knife, and so it doesn't necessarily conflict with the islands message to Locke - "after all, you're a hunter, John"

Also, anyone remember Walt's comic: ..I wonder how this relates? They both appear to be about 'hidden lands'..

Alternatively, look at the man on the cover. The way the knife is on it, it appears that the man is scared of the knife, like he's detering Locke, ever-so-slightly from picking it up.

Interesting, I perceive him being terrified at the sight of the 'hidden land' suddenly becoming visible, but I know what you mean. Also, anyone notice how the knife is facing down towards young Locke - i classic symbol of 'danger/agression'. They used a similar method back in Season 1 when Sawyer handed Sayid a knife (i think it was those two)..but the knife was handed over with the handle facing towards the receiver - a 'non-threatening' gesture. I'm not sure how much to read into this, but i thought it was worth mentioning.

The book of Laws, I don't think this is what he wanted. That just seems a bit odd. The island, from what we've seen, is fairly lawless.

Really? Alpert's expression seemed most 'please/excited' when young Locke considered the book of laws.. You say the island is 'lawless', yet the 4.09 clearly showed us that there are "rules" which are in place..rules which possibly date back many many years.

It's interesting to point out, that, dispite John's age, he is not fazed or even interested in the Comic, or the Baseball Glove. These would be something a young child would choose.

Yes, good shout. He seemed a fairly passive child..the choice of the knife also suggests that he was a child who had an air of danger about him. Although perhaps most young boys would have chosen such an item anyways?

Don't forget, Richard said "Which of these items belongs to you already?" not "Which item belongs to you already?" signifying that John was perhaps supposed to choose more than one thing.

Yeah, i think he was hoping Locke would choose more than one item. I also find it interesting that young Locke moved several of the items close to him..did Alpert consider these as 'choices'?

Although to counter the plural idea - Alpert specifically asked him (to the effect of) - "are you sure that belongs to you, John?" - he didn't ask whether 'they' belong to you.

This makes me wonder, did any of the other Losties get this test, and, if they did, what did they choose?

Maybe..it's interesting to consider how far Mittelos' testing and monitoring went. Funny, many of us had these kinds of theories back in the day - I know that Ki and I often discussed this kind of thing, although we related to to Dharma and Hanso..but still, not far off!

[Lauren [is Lost]]

Great thread, guys! I am finding all this fanscinating.

Just watched the episode again, and thought this scene was very intriguing. I think John's choice of the vial of ash (i'm also thinking it was ash and not sand - perhaps smokey in it's dormant form) was definately 'correct' according to Alpert. I also think from the look on Alpert's face that John was definately meant to choose the Book of Laws. Possibly to represent the laws of the island, and the fact that John is the destined 'leader' of the island and the only one who can save it? Hence why he would need a book of laws on it.

However it is interesting to note what Alpert said 'Which of these things belong to you already?" I think this is hinting at the possibility that John is some kind of reincarnation of someone (Jacob??) or otherwise something to do with time loops. Either way, i think somehow John has been to the island before - either in a past life or otherwise. I also think that Emily's conception of John was an immaculate conception - just as the older Emily said to John in one of his flashbacks. He was immaculately conceived for a purpose - his destiny was to 'save the island'. So perhaps Alpert was referring to the fact that John has some kind of in-built knowledge of the island and is already programmed to save it? Hence "Which of these items belong to you already".

I was fascinated reading about the theories on the knife and the comic - and i definately think it was significant that the knife was place on the top of the comic, also that it appeared to show the man on the front of the comic looking in fear at the blade. It was possibly Alpert's way of 'deterring' John from selecting either, especially as the knife was placed with the blade pointing forward.

I think John's drawing - seemingly of smokey dragging him down a hole - further alludes to the idea that John has been to the island - 'lived this life' - before, or to the fact that it is his destiny.

Alpert seemed very annoyed/disappointed that John did not pass the 'test', but i think he tried to contact him again when he was a teenager to see if he was ready by then. Remember he said to the young John that he was "Not quite ready yet".

Also, this is quite random but i loved how John was playing backgammon, lol. Nice touch! Obviously also signifying his connection with the island, even at that young age.

Fascinating stuff!