Lost's New Hate Figure

[firebreathingfishies]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Interesting FB, and I do understand what you're saying. However why is it that when Ben is 'following orders' everyone comes down on him like a ton of Hugo's, yet Keamy executes a young woman and he gets a slap on the wrist, cos that's what this feels like

Because no one really knows what Jacob is yet And I wouldn't say people are giving Keamy a 'slap on the wrist', this episode made me like Ben

It is interesting to try to understand the mind of someone like Keamy though - you raise an interesting point that someone like Keamy probably think's he's neutral and conditions himself to think this way. He's almost like a very skewed version of Ben - the Ben that many people thought really was Ben, especially back in the day before TPTB began showing his ethics and strong moral code (again apparent in this episode). In fact Keamy probably represents another mindset on this show - the type of mindset which isn't about 'greater good' or even 'good'..it's purely about politics. He gets paid to carry out a job that he does at all costs..economics and politics. A new rival to the 'greater good' mindset. Makes the likes of Sawyer's 'self preservation' seem so small cheese.

Yeah I agree, it's why I sometimes nab my dad's books. It's a very interesting, if not extremely morbid, topic. To be a good solider sometimes you have to make yourself neutral because, at the end of the day, you're going to have to kill people. If you get hung up on every single death, then you'll have problems. Keamy has obviously killed a lot of people, so one more isn't going to bother him, whether it's a 16 year old girl or not. Yeah, that's exactly what Widmore is bringing to the table; politics. It's a good contrast to Ben's apparent simple protection for the island.

Good point - he's a soldier..albeit a cowboy soldier (mercenary) - they are often taught to displace themselves from the situation. But even a soldier must know the difference between what is acceptable and what is not. I mean look at Rambo - sure he killed, but he had a freakin heart. He had a moral code. What's a soldier without morals? Keamy is the type of soldier who is more dangerous than anyone, cos he has no cause..no great objective, apart from getting paid. How can he push himself beyond the boundaries of killing a 16 year old without any moral hangup? A soldier sees some of the sickest things possible, but even solders should have rules. And this really brings home Ben's point about "innocents" - Alex was one of those "innocents" - yet Widmore's people killed her without another thought. This stark comparison in Widmore and Ben's codes of conduct really tell us alot about why Ben is the 'good guy'.

I imagine he knows fine well killing people is wrong, but it was his orders. He strikes me as a man of unquestioning loyalty. Widmore will have ordered for everyone who gets in the way to be killed to get to Ben. Keamy doesn't know any of them and doesn't care; it's probably the mindframe he has put himself in to do his job. I agree completely about that kind of soldier being the worst. It's like the soldiers who went off and did their own thing during the Vietnam war - murdering whole villiages and the like because they saw everyone as the enemy. This episode has definately turned around for Ben, but I'm not going to 100% agree that he's the good guy just get. There's too much history between him and Widmore.

Interesting Vietnam comparison, it certainly deserves some consideration - although at this juncture I would suggest that unlike those in that expample, Keamy wasn't without orders and he wasn't knew exactly what he was doing. his moral threshold must be extremely high to be able to kill a young woman like that. The thing is, what if he didn't just kill her - someone like him could easily have tortured her or physically abused her..infact, i think that's the impression they wanted us to have - that Keamy is that type of person, the person who would do that to a hostage. I'm not saying that he did do that to her, but i think we're supposed to believe that he could have.

Exactly, everyone on that freighter is under orders. They knew exactly what was going on with Desmond when he arrived and had probably prepared for that. And like I said above, Keamy probably put himself in the frame of mind to be able to kill someone like that. It's amazing what some people are capable off without remorse, however I've always beleived you must have some degree of insanity to be able to do it. Yeah, the writers wanted to show that Keamy is that kind of person by having him shoot Alex so unexpectedly (however I don't think he did anything else to her, it was too buisnessy). Throughout the whole show there has been an ascept of reasoning, on the Losties side and the Others' side, but this is the first time reasoning has been completely chucked out of the window.

I just don't understand how Keamy can come out of this relatively smelling of roses, when people still hammer Ben from pillar to post about the hanging of Scott..which one of his people 'may' or may 'not' have done.

Keamy executed Alex (and God knows what else he could've done to the poor girl)..this we know.

I don't think he's come out smelling of roses at all There's still too much of Ben's backstory that needs to be explained before he can be fully accepted as good/bad. We have all the evidence to lynch Keamy after this episode, so discussion on him will just be 'b*****d! * whereas Ben is still open to bashing because not everyone has made their minds up yet.

[Malion]

I blame him for the deaths of Karl and Alex... and as such, he must pay.

Pour more wood on the oil!

[Andy9283]

HA HA. We didn't see this coming.
You lot loved Keemi a few episodes ago.

[Kennindra47]

I wonder how Keamy was able to survive Smokey's attack

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Kennindra47

I wonder how Keamy was able to survive Smokey's attack

I think that Benjamin, in his grace, only set it to stun ..or perhaps Smokey cannot kill on first instance? As his first meetings with Locke, Eko and Kate (for example) all appear to be recconnaissance and gentle scare tactics..perhaps Smokey has it's own version of "shock and awe", and will be back for them once it's finished downloading and making sense of any data that it stripped from their subconscious or whatever?

[Kennindra47]

Hmmm true. It does seem to spend a lot of time staring into the eyes of its victims, judging them or whatever it does It can't have had enough time to do that with Keamy and all of his men

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by firebreathingfishies

Because no one really knows what Jacob is yet And I wouldn't say people are giving Keamy a 'slap on the wrist', this episode made me like Ben

But i don't think that's a good enough reason for Ben to get so much stick, in comparison to others like, Keamy, say. Also if that's the case the shouldn't we be giving Jacob more stick?

Yeah I agree, it's why I sometimes nab my dad's books. It's a very interesting, if not extremely morbid, topic. To be a good solider sometimes you have to make yourself neutral because, at the end of the day, you're going to have to kill people. If you get hung up on every single death, then you'll have problems. Keamy has obviously killed a lot of people, so one more isn't going to bother him, whether it's a 16 year old girl or not. Yeah, that's exactly what Widmore is bringing to the table; politics. It's a good contrast to Ben's apparent simple protection for the island.

Good points and I do understand what you're putting across. I guess a soldier has to de-humanise themselves..that's the only wayfor them to be 'good' (HA!) soldiers, kinda thing. However, one could aruge that BEN considers himself a soldier/general..afterall he is in a war and has probably been for most of his adult life. Yet despite this, Ben is able to find compassion and reason...

I guess this makes Ben a better man than Keamy, who appears to have no alturistic goals..another point which makes him even more despisable imho

I mean imagine if Ben had killed Karl (and he had more reason to than Keamy had to kill Alex!)..people would be up in arms and calling for the poor mans head

I imagine he knows fine well killing people is wrong, but it was his orders. He strikes me as a man of unquestioning loyalty. Widmore will have ordered for everyone who gets in the way to be killed to get to Ben. Keamy doesn't know any of them and doesn't care; it's probably the mindframe he has put himself in to do his job. I agree completely about that kind of soldier being the worst. It's like the soldiers who went off and did their own thing during the Vietnam war - murdering whole villiages and the like because they saw everyone as the enemy. This episode has definately turned around for Ben, but I'm not going to 100% agree that he's the good guy just get. There's too much history between him and Widmore.

Ooh, i don't know about that..are 'mercenaries' loyal people? I think the profession of 'mercenary' is anything but loyal.

He'd question his loyalty alright (imo)..he go with whatever side is offering him more bounty.

Yes, I agree..those kind of soldiers are the worst kind..i guess this is why they say a soldier is not there to think for him/herself..but to follow orders. But it's probably this mindset and disconnnections from morality which leads them to be poor decision makers and poor followers (not all of them, but ones like 'Team Keam').

I agree.. Ben now has alot more sympathy and understanding from the fan community. I've waited for this day for many a year and now I shall bask in his glory (oops, getting ahead of myself there).

Hmm, but surely he is the 'good guy'..because he's the guy who is standing between total destruction of our losties and the plundering of the island and survival..freedom. He's the guy fighting the 'good' fight, he's the guy who is sacrificing his only daughter for the survival of the island..and possibly..the world.

Exactly, everyone on that freighter is under orders. They knew exactly what was going on with Desmond when he arrived and had probably prepared for that. And like I said above, Keamy probably put himself in the frame of mind to be able to kill someone like that. It's amazing what some people are capable off without remorse, however I've always beleived you must have some degree of insanity to be able to do it. Yeah, the writers wanted to show that Keamy is that kind of person by having him shoot Alex so unexpectedly (however I don't think he did anything else to her, it was too buisnessy). Throughout the whole show there has been an ascept of reasoning, on the Losties side and the Others' side, but this is the first time reasoning has been completely chucked out of the window.

Yeah, Keamy has more than a degree of insanity..he has a whole freighter-load, the swine!

True, i doubt he did any funny business with her, but without being unfairly judgemental, i do think he'd be the type who would..the way he pushed her head down when they were at the fense didn't sit well with me..he was far too aggressive with her..not on Keam..NOT on!

Well said, and i agree..reasoning was thrown out of the window the moment Keamy killed Alex..bartering was always a crucial aspect of the relationship between The Others and the Losties - Kate for the guns (etc), but now we have a new precendent..a rule change..

Yet interestingly not a 'rule break'..interesting wording from Ben..

I don't think he's come out smelling of roses at all There's still too much of Ben's backstory that needs to be explained before he can be fully accepted as good/bad. We have all the evidence to lynch Keamy after this episode, so discussion on him will just be 'b*****d! * whereas Ben is still open to bashing because not everyone has made their minds up yet.

But i believe that the more we peel back, the more sympathetic Ben will become. Of course he's no saint..neither is Sawyer yet most peeps overlook his past/present..so i think that Ben will - all things being fair - become the "hero" of this show. well, he already is my Lost hero along with the Lockerter.

I shall wait for peoples minds to be made up..i guess we'll see..