Official ABC 4.09 Discussion Thread - The Shape of Things To Come

[D-Roc]

SEASON 4 EPISODE 9:
'4.09: THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME'

[D-Roc]

SEASON 4 EPISODE 9:
'4.09: THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME'

This is the official discussion thread for Episode 4.09. This episode was shown on ABC on 27/04/08.

Writers:
Brian K. Vaughan & Drew Goddard

Director:
Jack Bender

Episode Centric:
Benjamin Linus

Synopsis

Ben makes a choice as Keamy and his team make their attack on the Barracks, while a body washes ashore at the beach.

This thread has been created so that you can post and discuss all of your reviews, observations and general thoughts and opinions on this episode.

However, please feel free to start a NEW thread in this 4.09 forum if you have something specfic from this episode that you would like to discuss or raise - This is encouraged..you are not limited to only posting in this thread - this thread is simply a general port of call for general episode opinions or reviews. Go out there and post threads on aspects or thoughts which you want to raise independetly of this thead!

=======

If you haven't already done so, please read our updated Spoiler Rules [/url]and forum guidelines before posting.

Remember, everyone, old or new, has something to contribute to the discussion and something worth saying!!

If your thread is posted in the wrong place then it may get moved to the appropriate place/forum by a Moderator - this is to ensure that the forum is organised and everything is easy to find. Please do not take offence if your thread has been moved. If you need to locate a moved thread, either ask a member of staff by posting in the Helpdesk forum[/url], or click on your Username and select "search for all posts by this user".

If you have any questions or problems with posting, please let a member of staff know in the Helpdesk forum [/url]or contact Admin using the Contact Form[/url] (for those unregisted or unable to log-in)- we are happy to help.

If you were not able to see this episode and wish to do so, please see the "Miss An Episode?" thread for more information.[/url]

Thread Status: Open

-----------------------

[Losty]

*sobs*

A....ahahahaha......ALEX!

[D-Roc]

The Shape of Things To Come. I have never in my life seen an episode quite like this one. IF this IS to be the shape of the remainder of the season, then I think i'll need a cushion for my jaw, which constatly hit the ground whilst watching this absolute gem of an episode.

This episode ranks up there with Walkabout, Deus Ex Machina and The Constant. That's how good it was. It had everything - death, action, mythology, mystery, a fantastic 'flash', intriguing character development, a quality 'B' story (Jack/Faraday etc) and all of it moved the story forward like a freightrain..or a smoke monster on acid.

Speaking of which - OMG, smokey is back baby! Take THAT Keamy, you murdering swine!

Poor Alex..poor Ben! I have never in my Lost watching life been as shocked as I was when Keamy popped Alex in the head. My jaw klanged to the the ground, and i totally mirrored Ben in a silent state of shock, heartbreak and disbelief. It's not that I didn't expect Keamy to do it - i'm sure Ben knew there was a good chance..but like Ben I was suprised when it actually happened..the way it happened, the speed and unfliching manner in which it happened. And the way in which her death was preceeded - by Alex begging her "daddy" to help her..she was literally crying for her dad, her hero, to do something..anything..to get her out of Keamy's clutches..and the POP..and she slumps to the ground..the rules, changed, forever.

This episode confirmed my suspicions regarding the code of conduct that Ben and the Others (and other people in the war) have to..or are expected to abide by. It confirms that when Mrs Klugh told Mike "we can't do that (save Henry themselves)", that's exactly what she meant. It confirms that when Ben doesn't tell the Losties everything..that's exactly what he can't do - rules..codes of conduct..laws which govern the game..no, the 'war'.

My heart bleeds for Ben..I know many will argue that he sacrificed his daughter, but it's obvious that he had littleroom for manouvre and clearly believed that he could talk Keamy round..afterall, he didn't know that Widmore would change the rules. He did his best to prepare for such 'cheating' by sending Alex, Karl and Rousseau to the Temple, however they got caught - he didn't expect that. He did what he could, and I for one am proud of Ben, but deeply saddened by his loss.

The flash was amazing - more confirmation of my theory that Ben can 'magic box' his way through time and possibly space. Interestinly he came (teleported) from somewhere 'cold' and wasn't expecting to end up in Tunisia (or he wasn't certain that that's where he'd end up), which begs the question - did he magic box from the island..or from the Artic (possibly where those Brasilians were at the end of S2)..and what 'time' did he magic box from? He seemed uncertain that the year would be 2005, although his estimation was correct.

And what of the Widmore encounter - how fraking amazing (and good to see them actually using authentic London filming for once!). I gleaned from their encounter that at this point (2005) Widmore still doesn't have the island, but Ben does - "The hunt is on", relates to Widmore's search for the island, and Ben's search for Penelope..at least, that's what I understand. Incidentally this sets up all sorts of interesting and moral dilemna's - will Ben actually kill Penny?..where IS Penny? How will this effect Desmond's role in the show?

And what of Sayid..We now know how he joined team Linus - he feels that Ben's war is his war - it's personal to him for what Widmore did to his wife(!) Nadia. But DID Widmore kill Nadia? I think so, but obviously there will be speculation that Ben did it, in order to recruit Sayid.

I thought Sawyer was both incredibly brave and incredibly stupid in this episode - some amazing 'Action man' scenes with him saving Claire - who TPTB had the perfect chance to knock off BTW..damn it TPTB! - but his attempt to turn Ben over to keamy was pure foolishness, not to mention incredibly selfish. Still, this was at least an interesting Sawyer once more..that's more like it.

I should also add, that I think he could well be on the chopping block soon - he's one of a few characters who's post 2004 life we do not yet know about..

Locke was fantastic in this episode - he didn't actually do much, but Terry O' Quinn was on the ball once again with his interpreation of the character, particularly in relation to siding with Ben, and offering his condolences for his loss. Learn a thing, Sawyer.

There's so much more about this episode - I've barely touched on smokey, the hieroglyphs, the tunnel, Ben's Jacket, the 'B' story..etc

I think this is a legendary episode..and for the first time in a long time, i am physically and mentally looking forward to the next installment!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Losty

*sobs*

A....ahahahaha......ALEX!

I know...it's awful..

[Losty]

Okay- i'm up for a proper review now.

I'm agreeing with Rocco that this was one of THE best episodes ever- it's coming up there with The Moth and The Constant. The excitement, the reveals, the intriguing flash's...it's what Lost's about.

Firstly, I was saddened to discover that Dani is, in fact, dead. When Alex told Ben "they killed Karl, and my mother," my heart sank quite a lot.

And code 14-J? I think it's most likely that Alex sent it, at the same time as opening the sonic fence. Would they have programmed it (I mean they as in the Dharma Initiative, as I doubt Ben could have built it later) for safety regarding Smokey? Or for a situation just like this?

Alex's death scene made me sob...(I can't believe i'm about to type this)...more than Charlie's death scene did. It was so upsetting, and the fact that this was right in front of the burning remains of Claires house- very powerful, along with the first time Alex called Ben "daddy." I cried in front of this screen, my brother running to me to find out what was going on.

The sub-plot is making me wonder- what the heck is wrong with Jack? I don't know why his stomach started acting up as soon as Daniel lowered the bomb that they weren't there to rescue them. I think Jack lied that his 'bug', is just that.

Also- was that really the doctor? I couldn't really get a great glimpse of his face- and he was all pale and stuff.

The Flashes...very very intriguing. Sad to hear that Nadia is dead...feel extremely sorry for Sayid, but I had a hunch that his employment of Bens was something to do with her.

The Widmore scene is now one of my favourite scenes ever- Two brilliant actors in a room in the middle of the night- bound for a classic scene. I am also interested by the Ben/Penny situation. Will he get Sayid to kill her, or will he "do the honours" himself? If Desmond does get to the mainland- I don't think he'll let that happen, whether it's Ben or Sayid.

And CLAIRE- WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?! Glad that she's been dreaming of Charlie, but deciding that her whole believing of the reason of his death was a mistake and going back to the beach...HOW DARE SHE?! I mean- I think there she'll find Charlie's ring that he left for Aaron there and then go into a deep depression (that's what I want )

All in all- brilliant episode, third 10/10 for me EVER.

Oh...and good to see Smokey again, or Rex as i'm gonna call him from now on.

[Hordriss]

It was interesting to see the "games" theme revived again, played for (slightly cheesy) laughs in the Risk scene, then applied to the series mythology as we learn that Ben and Widmore have - to this point - been abiding by a mysterious rulebook. Thus it would seem, by implication, that they have been playing Risk / Backgammon / Chess ("She's a pawn") with the lives of everybody else (and I think we are now faced with the distinct possibility that they mutually arranged the fake plane crash, which seems a lot more likely than either one of them doing it alone). Mind you, the writers are so in love with playing with our sympathies - especially with walking mountains of moral ambiguity like Ben - that this is still all very speculative. Nonetheless, it seems certain that at some level, everything up until this point has been a game of sorts for Ben, and only this personal loss has caused him to get serious (hence the use of the "ultimate weapon", I assume, which at least finally explains why he has never shown any fear of Old Smokey).

Yes, an exciting and suspenseful episode, but it sacrificed a lot of plausibility with Sawyer dodging any number of bullets and anti-tank rockets and Claire surviving a house collapsing on her, while the nameless extras were dropping like ninepins. Exactly how many background Losties are left alive, now?

[Lauren [is Lost]]

Wow, what a freaking awesome episode!! I loved it a great comeback eppy. Firstly - i can't believe they killed Alex!! :O what a shocker. Not that i thought Keamy was the type to play games, although clearly Ben didnt believe he would actually go through with it. I feel awful for Alex, but i must say it does serve Ben right for being so damn selfish!

I absolutely LOVED Sawyer in this episode! Thought he was bloody brilliant. How he rescued Claire and everything, and in general he just made me laugh and i thought he was great. But it was slightly ridiculous that he managed not to get shot with about 100 freightie bullets being aimed at him!! Roco, you scared me with what you said about his head possibly being on the chopping block....eeek, i dont want Sawyer to die!! Not after Charlie...i dont think i could cope! Fingers crossed that he sticks around for a while yet. I love Sawyer!

Thought it was interesting that Hurley was looking after Aaron for most of this episode - although definately a hint of things to come, i think. Hurley will probably be 'left holding the baby' quite literally, and something will happen to Claire. That's what i think anyway...

I sometimes find Sayid flashbacks slightly dull, but i thought this one was interesting, especially as we find out how he came to work for Ben. How very noble of you, Sayid. Poor Nadia though - it seems that everyone who is remotely involved with one of the losties ends up dead these days...

Liked the stuff about Ben & co. being trapped in the house, and once again the losties having to take orders from Ben. Also we find out that Ben has yet again lied about something - the smoke monster. Oh dear Mr Linus...building up quite a reputation, aren't we? I still think he is a fabulous character, though.

Interesting that Hurley has gone with Locke & Ben...looking forward to seeing what will happen with the mysterious Jacob! I am quite intrigued as to what role Hurley will play in all this....
Also i wonder how Hurley then comes to get off the island with Jack & co? Obviously now Claire, Sawyer and Miles are heading back, but as we know none of them get 'rescued'. I wonder how Hurley ends up 'holding the baby' then? Unless (oh god) all 3 of them die somehow and Hurley rescues Aaron? Ahh no....PLEASE not Sawyer! :S

The Jack and Kate flirting at the beginning made me giggle...is Kate after Jack again now? Although i did notice something with her and Daniel too...which made me think of this forum as it's been mentioned on here before! I love Daniel...and hate Charlotte...but i wonder what they know about the situation with the Doctor? And was that really him? Looked like it to me...although Daniel's (or Bernard's) morse code message was very interesting - "What are you talking about, the doctor is fine". Unless it's all relative with the time difference...what if when the freighties received that message, the doctor WAS fine? Like, Daniel was speaking to them in the past? I hope this is making sense lol...and then something happened to the doctor afterwards? Plausible, imo. I actually love all this time difference stuff, i think it's brilliant. And it makes me laugh when Daniel tried to explain and Jack just doesn't get it xD ahh, bless him.

Loved the ending with Ben and Widmore. Wonder if Widmore meant anything by the fact that he said he couldnt kill Ben. Literally? Also interesting how this appeared to be in a relatively present time zone (i.e. not when the losties were still on-island). Gives us some hints of whats to come, i guess. So i assume Desmond is still alive?

All in all...brilliant episode. And i've just written more than i usually do! Loved it.

Also - loving the new forum!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Lauren [is Lost]

Wow, what a freaking awesome episode!! I loved it a great comeback eppy. Firstly - i can't believe they killed Alex!! :O what a shocker. Not that i thought Keamy was the type to play games, although clearly Ben didnt believe he would actually go through with it. I feel awful for Alex, but i must say it does serve Ben right for being so damn selfish!

How was he selfish? He sent Alex, Rousseau and Karl to the Temple to be safe. I agree, tho..Aleeeexx..

Maybe she'll come back as a whisper or spirit - wouldn't be the first time Ben has communited with a dead family member. Here's a thought, perhaps Miles could communicate with her from beyond..

I absolutely LOVED Sawyer in this episode! Thought he was bloody brilliant. How he rescued Claire and everything, and in general he just made me laugh and i thought he was great. But it was slightly ridiculous that he managed not to get shot with about 100 freightie bullets being aimed at him!! Roco, you scared me with what you said about his head possibly being on the chopping block....eeek, i dont want Sawyer to die!! Not after Charlie...i dont think i could cope! Fingers crossed that he sticks around for a while yet. I love Sawyer!

Yeah, i think the future looks bleak for Sawyer - although that's just a hunch based on the fact that we know nothing about his future through flash-forwards

Yeah, that was a bit ridiculous how he doged all of those bullet's whilst redshirt-Bob got the Karl treatment. Although, perhaps..and it's only a 'perhaps', the incinuation is that the ISLAND was protecting him? I'm beginning i never saw Meet Kevin Johnson now

Thought it was interesting that Hurley was looking after Aaron for most of this episode - although definately a hint of things to come, i think. Hurley will probably be 'left holding the baby' quite literally, and something will happen to Claire. That's what i think anyway...

Someone up there sure likes Claire - how on earth did she not perish!

I sometimes find Sayid flashbacks slightly dull, but i thought this one was interesting, especially as we find out how he came to work for Ben. How very noble of you, Sayid. Poor Nadia though - it seems that everyone who is remotely involved with one of the losties ends up dead these days...

Meh, let's just say that I can see Sayid's tail..and it's firmly between his legs Still, i did LOVE the way they joined forces..it was an unusual but lovely experience. Go Team Linus! WOOP!

Liked the stuff about Ben & co. being trapped in the house, and once again the losties having to take orders from Ben. Also we find out that Ben has yet again lied about something - the smoke monster. Oh dear Mr Linus...building up quite a reputation, aren't we? I still think he is a fabulous character, though.

Hmm, although interestingly he implied that he may not have lied - he might not know what it is..Jacob does however. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Losty

Okay- i'm up for a proper review now.

I'm agreeing with Rocco that this was one of THE best episodes ever- it's coming up there with The Moth and The Constant. The excitement, the reveals, the intriguing flash's...it's what Lost's about.

Sweet review! yeah, this eppy was fandabulous!

Firstly, I was saddened to discover that Dani is, in fact, dead. When Alex told Ben "they killed Karl, and my mother," my heart sank quite a lot.

Yeah, I guess she was confirmed dead by Alex, since Keamy's people would have checked on her before departing from the scene - although i'm surprised that they never showed confirmation of her death in a later episode - perhaps with Ben/Locke/Hugo coming across her body enroute to the hut or the Temple.

I still think we'll get a Rousseau flashie at somepoint

And code 14-J? I think it's most likely that Alex sent it, at the same time as opening the sonic fence. Would they have programmed it (I mean they as in the Dharma Initiative, as I doubt Ben could have built it later) for safety regarding Smokey? Or for a situation just like this?

Yup, I assumed Alex sent it - although i was cursing her before that when she entered the code to let Team-Keamy inside the boundary. I should've known better to doubt you dear Alex. That's our girl..giving Benji the headsup. How tragic..the last words she heard Ben say were...

Alex's death scene made me sob...(I can't believe i'm about to type this)...more than Charlie's death scene did. It was so upsetting, and the fact that this was right in front of the burning remains of Claires house- very powerful, along with the first time Alex called Ben "daddy." I cried in front of this screen, my brother running to me to find out what was going on.

I feel you - I too was just stunned and sickened. Although i am glad that ABC allowed such a grusome act to be shown, because such a scene needed it to gain the full impact. Still..she was SIXTEEN man..SIXTEEN. fraking Keamy!!I hope Smokes munched his azz.

The sub-plot is making me wonder- what the heck is wrong with Jack? I don't know why his stomach started acting up as soon as Daniel lowered the bomb that they weren't there to rescue them. I think Jack lied that his 'bug', is just that.

Good shout - i think this is indeed the 'shape of things to come' for Jack - he's popping pills and looking sick, much like in smoe of his future flashes. I think this may forshadow what is to come for him.

I also love how the producers liked the title "The Beginning of the End" so much, that they basically recycled it with "The Shape of Things to Come", which basically means the same thing..LOL TPTB..LOL

Also- was that really the doctor? I couldn't really get a great glimpse of his face- and he was all pale and stuff.

Yup, it was him alright. I'm thinking that the time difference (or the perspective of..) will come into play. Perhaps he is still currently alive on the boat, but will die..I think the time difference works in reverse when somethin comes to the island, so basically the losties could be seeing a future Doctor Ray.

Also, i found it interesting how the Island wont allow the boat to come near to it, yet it allows a dead body to wash ashore - more evidence of the island needing souls on which to feed?

[Lauren [is Lost]]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

How was he selfish? He sent Alex, Rousseau and Karl to the Temple to be safe. I agree, tho..Aleeeexx..

Maybe she'll come back as a whisper or spirit - wouldn't be the first time Ben has communited with a dead family member. Here's a thought, perhaps Miles could communicate with her from beyond..

No, it appears that THAT wasn't selfish...until he let Alex sit there and be told that "she means nothing", and then let her get shot by Keamy. Nice one, Ben. No 'father of the year' awards for you. As soon as he knew Alex was being held hostage, he should have been out there like a shot (excuse the pun). Keamy shouldn't have even had to bring out the gun. What WAS he thinking? Not about saving his daughter's life, oh no, but about saving his own ass. Selfish bugger!

Yeah, i think the future looks bleak for Sawyer - although that's just a hunch based on the fact that we know nothing about his future through flash-forwards

Yeah, that was a bit ridiculous how he doged all of those bullet's whilst redshirt-Bob got the Karl treatment. Although, perhaps..and it's only a 'perhaps', the incinuation is that the ISLAND was protecting him? I'm beginning i never saw Meet Kevin Johnson now

Interesting point. Could well be so. If we're with Locke and his 'everything happens for a reason' malarkey, the island could well be protecting Sawyer (at least for the time being).

Someone up there sure likes Claire - how on earth did she not perish!

Hmm...unless of course the island is protecting her too?

Meh, let's just say that I can see Sayid's tail..and it's firmly between his legs Still, i did LOVE the way they joined forces..it was an unusual but lovely experience. Go Team Linus! WOOP!

I must admit, it was a great moment of the show!

Hmm, although interestingly he implied that he may not have lied - he might not know what it is..Jacob does however. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Of course, but doesn't he always? Benjamin Linus is a compulsive liar, end of story