The Pearl

[Mantis Zero]

I was just thinking was the purpose of the visions to actually find The Pearl? Lets face it there didnt actually seem to be anything overly revealing down there except the fact we now know the others or somebody else has been monitoring goings on down the Swan hatch. What if the purpose of these visions was just to take the heat off Michael and Henry?

As a result of the visions Eko did not question what happened with Ana and Libby - two people he was close to on his first 48 days on the island. If these dreams hadnt happened at that precise moment I have a feeling Eko would tke his frustration out on the only surviving "witness" to the shootings - Michael. He may be doing a good job convincing Jack and Locke but they have both been blinkered by each other for most of Season 2 anyway. Eko's aggressive interrogation style would likely have broken Michael eventually as it did with Charlie in The 21st Psalm and Locke in ?. If Eko got the truth out of Michael - mission failed. If the others are in fact in control of Cerberus then they would want Michael to fulfil his mission, which I personally think is to bring in "the list".

Also while Eko took Locke out under the pretence of looking for Henry nobody actually was looking for Henry! He got away with ease, nobody following him, nobody knowing where he went.

So were the dreams actually a divine calling for Eko or merely a distraction?

[D-Roc]

Interesting theory there Mantis.

I see where youre coming from and it can be looked at both ways, though i interpreted Yemi's "there are many distractions brother..dont let them stop you..what is done is done" [or someting like that] to be a genuine plea for Eko to look beyond the death of his dear friends and to take immediate action in finding the question mark. Granted, it 'could' be a bit of island manipulation in order to distract Eko from finding Henry etc. Though im begingi to think that some [if not most] of the dreams and visions are genuine signs/messages from the dead, although at times thery are perhaps misinterpreted by the losties. I think Yemi's was message so clear because he has a close affinity with God and was at peace himself..as for Ana, well she had just died so i think her portal to the 'world' was still slightly ajar [bless her].

So i personally would say that his dream was neither a divine calling or a piece of Other/Hanso distraction but rather a message from those close to him. I know this sounds naff but i do think that we could be going down the 'ghost' route. So i guess you 'could' say it was divine intervention from Yemi? I would certainly say it was a genuine message and not island/hanso etc manipulation. This time.

Also as for HG, well i recall Locke saying that "there's not even a trail" [or something like that]..so it looks like Henry 'can' sneak around like the rest of his peeps...which would also suggest that his heavy footed clumbering around the pantry shelves in 'Lockdown' was a mere ploy to fool Locke into thinking he was a regular guy and not Others affiliated. Clever man that Henry.

[Mantis Zero]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 07, 2006 05:50 pm

Interesting theory there Mantis.

I see where youre coming from and it can be looked at both ways, though i interpreted Yemi's "there are many distractions brother..dont let them stop you..what is done is done" [or someting like that] to be a genuine plea for Eko to look beyond the death of his dear friends and to take immediate action in finding the question mark. Granted, it 'could' be a bit of island manipulation in order to distract Eko from finding Henry etc. Though im begingi to think that some [if not most] of the dreams and visions are genuine signs/messages from the dead, although at times thery are perhaps misinterpreted by the losties. I think Yemi's was message so clear because he has a close affinity with God and was at peace himself..as for Ana, well she had just died so i think her portal to the 'world' was still slightly ajar [bless her].

So i personally would say that his dream was neither a divine calling or a piece of Other/Hanso distraction but rather a message from those close to him. I know this sounds naff but i do think that we could be going down the 'ghost' route. So i guess you 'could' say it was divine intervention from Yemi? I would certainly say it was a genuine message and not island/hanso etc manipulation. This time.

Also as for HG, well i recall Locke saying that "there's not even a trail" [or something like that]..so it looks like Henry 'can' sneak around like the rest of his peeps...which would also suggest that his heavy footed clumbering around the pantry shelves in 'Lockdown' was a mere ploy to fool Locke into thinking he was a regular guy and not Others affiliated. Clever man that Henry.

If Yemi wanted to communicate with Eko then why do it through Locke? This to me doesnt make sense if it really was Yemi delivering the messages. I feel it was designed to get Eko to have blind faith in what he was doing "there are many distractions" seems like a cunning way of convincing him that this is not the distraction but the other more important stuff such as his dead/dying friends or finding their killer is.

I thought there wasnt a trail because Eko shot off to confront Locke away from prying eyes. If they had looked for a trail in the first place they probably could have found one but Eko took the lead. I personally dont think the thing about "they dont leave a trail" is actually true.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Mantis Zero,September 08, 2006 05:15 pm

If Yemi wanted to communicate with Eko then why do it through Locke? This to me doesnt make sense if it really was Yemi delivering the messages. I feel it was designed to get Eko to have blind faith in what he was doing "there are many distractions" seems like a cunning way of convincing him that this is not the distraction but the other more important stuff such as his dead/dying friends or finding their killer is.

I thought there wasnt a trail because Eko shot off to confront Locke away from prying eyes. If they had looked for a trail in the first place they probably could have found one but Eko took the lead. I personally dont think the thing about "they dont leave a trail" is actually true.

So we agree that "there are many distractions" was a reference to the murder of Ana and Libby and for Eko to see past that and concentrate on the bigger picture. However, i think it does make sense for Yemi to deliver part of his message through Locke..because the message wasnt solely for Eko - it was for both of them. Remember, "John has lost his way". This suggests that Yemi wanted to motivate EKo in order to help Locke. So it makes sense for Yemi to convince Locke to let Eko help him as well as convincing EKo to help Locke.

By manisfesting Locke in the form of Eko it gave Locke the belief that this whole enthusiastic drive by Eko wasnt merelyt in his mind..he wasnt "insane" as Locke so wonderfully put it. Therefore this allowed Locke to trust Eko and enabled them to work together.

The more i think about it the more convinced i am that the dead are able to tap into the sunconcious of the living. Though i am still weary of certain messages being manipulated by the Hanso Fundation [or whoever].

Regarding the trail..maybe your right..maybe they werent going inthe correct direction anyway. ALthough it did seem to me as though Locke was keeping an eye out for a trail tobegin with, which suggests that they must of started out on the trail..or some sign of one.

Perosnally i do think they leave trails [the others] but ony very subtle ones. Remember, if it wasnt for Charlie's finger tapes then Jack and Kate would never have found him. Also..remember when Eko couldnt find any trail when the kids were taken? The are sneaky and used to the islands terrain..

[hundredand8]

I know this sounds naff but i do think that we could be going down the 'ghost' route.
...
The more i think about it the more convinced i am that the dead are able to tap into the sunconcious of the living. Though i am still weary of certain messages being manipulated by the Hanso Fundation [or whoever].

Its not naff I don't think. We need some sci-fi or supernatural explanation for whats going on, its one of many options.

The island has done this sort of thing before, with Kates black horse for example, or Polar Bears. What I mean is things appear to two people which only have a meaning for one of them, and that makes us think its real rather than a hallucination. It could still be a hallucination, and it could be real. After all they shot the Polar Bear, pretty serious hallucination if it was one.

What has changed recently is that we are getting people appearing like Walt, Dave and now Yemi and Ana-Lucia, rather than animals (although we got Christian Shephard already back in S1). I think its quite possible that the island can absorb the thoughts and personalities of those who are dead and recreate them, provided their bodies - or rather brains - are on the island. And Yemis body is, and that also means Christians body is on the island. Well, we knew that, its just we don't know where exactly.

But I don't think that what these recreations do is their choice. Its the island that made them, its no longer them. So not quite "ghosts", if you know what I mean.

I used to think the island is merely playing with these fascinating bipeds that wear clothes who appeared out of nowhere, but since "?" I'm thinking maybe the island has a plan after all. What plan? Thats anyones guess, but since it has twice helped Locke find a hatch by now my guess is it wants to get rid of the hatches, and of Dharma, because Dharma is like a pest, a disease, and it wants to cure itself of it.

Now that sounds naff, doesn't it

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by hundredand8,September 17, 2006 12:30 pm

Its not naff I don't think. We need some sci-fi or supernatural explanation for whats going on, its one of many options.

The island has done this sort of thing before, with Kates black horse for example, or Polar Bears. What I mean is things appear to two people which only have a meaning for one of them, and that makes us think its real rather than a hallucination. It could still be a hallucination, and it could be real. After all they shot the Polar Bear, pretty serious hallucination if it was one.

What has changed recently is that we are getting people appearing like Walt, Dave and now Yemi and Ana-Lucia, rather than animals (although we got Christian Shephard already back in S1). I think its quite possible that the island can absorb the thoughts and personalities of those who are dead and recreate them, provided their bodies - or rather brains - are on the island. And Yemis body is, and that also means Christians body is on the island. Well, we knew that, its just we don't know where exactly.

But I don't think that what these recreations do is their choice. Its the island that made them, its no longer them. So not quite "ghosts", if you know what I mean.

I used to think the island is merely playing with these fascinating bipeds that wear clothes who appeared out of nowhere, but since "?" I'm thinking maybe the island has a plan after all. What plan? Thats anyones guess, but since it has twice helped Locke find a hatch by now my guess is it wants to get rid of the hatches, and of Dharma, because Dharma is like a pest, a disease, and it wants to cure itself of it.

Now that sounds naff, doesn't it

Interesting thoughts there 108, not naff at all.

I agree with some of what you say.

I agree that the island [or something on the island, eg the BS] can absorb or tap into the thoughts/subconcious/memories of those on the island and then recreate or project them. Whether or no this can still be catagorised as an 'hallucination' im not sure. But the concept is the main thing.

However i dont think that the island/BS needs the persons body [eg Yemi, Christian] to be able to do this. Because otherwise how would Kates black horse be manifested to her and Sawyer [of course the horse may have been real, in fact i think it was] for example. And how would Charlies mother have been in his dream/hallucination. It's an interesting conept but [personally] i dont think thie island needs the persons/animals actual body to be on the island..i think that it only needs to tap into someones subconcious to project a vision etc.

I also think that there are several things going on here. What i mean is that i dont think its just a case of the island creating hallucinations. I think that it's a mixture of the island tapping into the subconcious of the losties and creating visions/hallucinations. But on the otherhand i also feel that some of the dreams could just be that - dreams. I suppose the challenge would then be to spot where the demarcation line is between island manipulation/intrusion and genuine dreams/paranoia etc?

Also, i do feel that Chrsitian is still alive..just a feeling i have. Though whether or not Jack's vision of him was an actual vision or 'real', is anyones guess. I suspect though that jack did hallucinate Chrsitian in WR but that Christian is still alive. Though even if Christian is dead, then i do believe that he, like Yemi, will play an active role in guiding Jack. because i get the feeling that the dead are very much alive on this here island And who knows..maybe they are the 'real' others..?

[hundredand8]

However i dont think that the island/BS needs the persons body [eg Yemi, Christian] to be able to do this. Because otherwise how would Kates black horse be manifested to her and Sawyer [of course the horse may have been real, in fact i think it was] for example. And how would Charlies mother have been in his dream/hallucination. It's an interesting conept* but [personally] i dont think thie island needs the persons/animals actual body to be on the island..i think that it only needs to tap into someones subconcious to project a vision etc.

Thats not what I meant (although to be honest I'm presently putting my own theories through a blender and the result isn't all that clear to me either). But let me try to clarify this.

Yes, the island can tap into the thoughts of the people on it, and then create visions or real objects (dead or alive). So thats where the black horse came from. And of course Yemi and Ana-Lucia could well have been created from Ekos memories. So for that I don't need what I said about the island being able to tap into dead people provided its got the body.

But whose memory gave rise to the vision of Ana-Lucia bleeding? Could be Michael of course. But I think its more likely that its Ana-Lucia having an out of body experience - what you said about her being a ghost in other words.

Nah, the more I think about it the more I think you are right. Dead peoples bodys being on the island doesn't come into it.