A long overdue Pro-Jack comment from me

[Kiowa Warrior]

Sorry, that was nothing but a (terribly shocking) lie, and I just want to rant about how, once again, Jack is such a horribly arrogant and self-centered waste of a leader.

First of all we have him ignoring Juliet's advice to stay put after his operation and Jack himself is far from stupid and must know that he needs to rest but no, he has to be up and about because clearly no-one can survive or make it home without his influence. Jack has to be moving because he's the great leader after all and is responsible for the wellbeing of everyone and is now consumed with guilt and responsibility because he is well on his way to breaking his promise that he'll get everyone off the Island. What a dedicated and caring and brave and selfless man right?

...no, no he's not.

He's just a complete control freak that doesn't like things to be out of his hands, especially when he's been instrumental in them from the beginning, like trying everything to get everyone off the Island.

Jack's supreme arrogance was in full flow yet again in this episode, with the highlight for me being when he tells Sawyer 'I put Sayid and Desmond on that chopper. It was my call. It's my responsibility.'

Oh I'm sorry Jack, it's just that I thought Sayid and Des got on the chopper on their own initiative and without your prompting or approval, and exercised something you may have heard about called free will. Like when Des came striding out of the jungle a good few episodes ago demanding a place on the chopper so he could find out why Naomi had a picture of Penny with her. Or when Sayid tricked Frank to secure him a place on the helicopter by bringing back Charlotte from Camp Locke in exchange for Miles. It must be my memory, because I don't remember hearing or seeing anything that had to do with Jack telling them to go on the chopper or offering them a place like one was his to give away in the first place.

Bloody Jack...

[Murg]

Yes, his sense of his own indispensablility is a vastly annoying character trait ... he tends to recreate history in his head to remove any trace of other characters' agency: I certainly don't think Sayid recalls what happened in quite the same way. Even so, I have to admit it's not the most egregious character fault on the island, vexing though it is (particularly in a leading character that is not, shockingly, anything like as engaging as the series' creators seem to like to think he is) - it stems from, ultimately, a desire to help and to care for people more overtly than it does from (a nonetheless present) need to play the leader and to control people, which is not in itself a bad thing. But in a leading character that we suppose to engage with rather than constantly be infuriated with, I quite agree ... it ain't good. 'Too heroic for his own good' - vomit-inducing.

[harvey107]

I don't mind Jack but I didn't like the Jack that was in the US Air Force rescue plane as he was controlling to the point of threatening that if the O6 didn't lie he would do something about it

[E Pluribus Unum]

Although - like Murg - I agree with your sentiments Ki. I don't think the points you've presented make Jack a "waste of a leader". In fact I think they're quite the opposite...

Sure, his reason for getting everyone off the island may be skewed and distorted; but that doesn't make his actions any less 'heroic' - because they are, whether you agree with his motivation or not. He's risking his life - rather rashly - to save other people (I think that's the definition of a hero, actually..)

I'm not denying the fact that Jack is motivated by his own ego; but isn't everyone? Locke, for instance, isn't motivated to save the Island because he has all the facts - has sat down and considered them - and came to the logical conclusion that saving the Island is the only right and just thing to do. No. Locke is saving the Island because it has shown an interest in him, it has fed Lockes ego, just as Jacks need to get the people off the Island is feeding Jacks.

Hell, even Ben - who I may not agree with, method-wise - was trying to save the Island, yet when the Island reached out to Locke, Ben shot him because he was following his ego; Ben wanted to be special and the chosen one, he put that ahead of the good of the Island...

(Note: I haven't choose those two characters for comparison because they're your two favourite characters, Ki. Merely because they're the two other leaders (ish) on the Island, it's a coincidence, honest )

That said, with regard to Jack "taking responsibility for Des and Sayid getting on the chopper" - I was as confused as you, Ki, at first. But then I started to think about it; Jack promised his people that the freighter people would help them get off the Island; he made them choose (it was go with Locke or go with Jack). Jack made the wrong stance, and is now taking responsibility for that stance; because he knows that because of it, Des and Sayid trusted the Freighter people (and got on the helicopter)...

I realise that Jacks choice of words indicated it was he who made the choice as to who went on the chopper first, but I think he may have been talking more generally. However, I'm really not sure - I'm just trying to look at it from another angle.

[monster-eats-pilot]

If I had never seen Lost before and just watched that scence [first of all where the hell have you been over the last 4 seasons ] but I could think Jack was heroic because he's risking his own health and well being to get 'his people' off the island and he's keeping that promise.
Of course I don't think that but it's another angle.

[lost-lover]

In my opinion, Jack's wrapped up with his obsession with fixing things and seems to alter history to make him seem better, more herioc, a better leader, etc. It makes him sounds like he saved everyone when in reality he was little more than a pawn in the game.

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by Murg

Yes, his sense of his own indispensablility is a vastly annoying character trait ... he tends to recreate history in his head to remove any trace of other characters' agency: I certainly don't think Sayid recalls what happened in quite the same way. Even so, I have to admit it's not the most egregious character fault on the island, vexing though it is (particularly in a leading character that is not, shockingly, anything like as engaging as the series' creators seem to like to think he is) - it stems from, ultimately, a desire to help and to care for people more overtly than it does from (a nonetheless present) need to play the leader and to control people, which is not in itself a bad thing. But in a leading character that we suppose to engage with rather than constantly be infuriated with, I quite agree ... it ain't good. 'Too heroic for his own good' - vomit-inducing.

Ah if only the show's creators had been brave enough to follow their original plan to have Jack killed off after a few episodes! Fair enough that Jack has his general fans as well as his die hard ones and on his own I think he's a character with a horrible personality, but when compared to most of the other Lost characters he has nothing special or unique or mysterious about him...nothing that makes him stand out as an individual. Yes he stands out, but only because the effort has been made to include him in so many scenes and episodes and storylines.

I can understand that Jack wanting to help people is an admirable thing, but it's the way he goes about it all but negates such good intentions. He's horribly controlling and self-centered who all too often puts his own personal issues ahead of other people. And yes I know there are plenty of other characters who do that as well, lol. But for a leader I don't think it's good at all, and I simply can't buy the reasonings of Jack being a 'dark' and 'flawed' character (hello Stranger In A...) that tries to give some justification and explanation to his actions and motivations.

Originally Posted by harvey107

I don't mind Jack but I didn't like the Jack that was in the US Air Force rescue plane as he was controlling to the point of threatening that if the O6 didn't lie he would do something about it

Compared to the others in the plane Jack just seemed to be taking everything in his stride, and Sun had to remind him that, guess what, they actually were in shock, and didn't have to use it as a fake excuse. Like when he was at Kate's court trial, Jack lied comfortably enough during the media questioning. I would have thought that, given everything they've all been through, Jack would have been shaken up as much as everyone else was. But even after they've been rescued Jack still can't help himself by controlling people.

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

Although - like Murg - I agree with your sentiments Ki. I don't think the points you've presented make Jack a "waste of a leader". In fact I think they're quite the opposite...

Sure, his reason for getting everyone off the island may be skewed and distorted; but that doesn't make his actions any less 'heroic' - because they are, whether you agree with his motivation or not. He's risking his life - rather rashly - to save other people (I think that's the definition of a hero, actually..)

I'm not denying the fact that Jack is motivated by his own ego; but isn't everyone? Locke, for instance, isn't motivated to save the Island because he has all the facts - has sat down and considered them - and came to the logical conclusion that saving the Island is the only right and just thing to do. No. Locke is saving the Island because it has shown an interest in him, it has fed Lockes ego, just as Jacks need to get the people off the Island is feeding Jacks.

Hell, even Ben - who I may not agree with, method-wise - was trying to save the Island, yet when the Island reached out to Locke, Ben shot him because he was following his ego; Ben wanted to be special and the chosen one, he put that ahead of the good of the Island...

(Note: I haven't choose those two characters for comparison because they're your two favourite characters, Ki. Merely because they're the two other leaders (ish) on the Island, it's a coincidence, honest )

That said, with regard to Jack "taking responsibility for Des and Sayid getting on the chopper" - I was as confused as you, Ki, at first. But then I started to think about it; Jack promised his people that the freighter people would help them get off the Island; he made them choose (it was go with Locke or go with Jack). Jack made the wrong stance, and is now taking responsibility for that stance; because he knows that because of it, Des and Sayid trusted the Freighter people (and got on the helicopter)...

I realise that Jacks choice of words indicated it was he who made the choice as to who went on the chopper first, but I think he may have been talking more generally. However, I'm really not sure - I'm just trying to look at it from another angle.

I can't argue that Jack doesn't do any good because his desire to save and help people is very admirable, but like I said in my reply to Murg I find his approach to and justification of such behaviour so awful most of the time that his good qualities are pretty much eclisped. I truly hate Jack's attitude towards and treatment of certain people, and think that if he is a leader he should not pick and chose which people to help and should not try and bring most of the outcomes of certain actions back onto himself.

Some may argue that by taking responsibility for a lot of things and blaming himself for the poor outcomes he's simply shouldering a lot of burdens, and is going the extra mile for people. But I just can't see that from him, and consider the way he turns things back to himself as smacking of arrogance...that if something goes wrong it's like Jack sighs and says 'well I'd better sort it out then,' as if he's the long suffering saviour of them all that has to pick up the pieces when things get messed up.

As with all of our character choices - who we like and who we dislike - a lot of it is simply down to personal preferences, and a very main reason why I can't stand Jack is his attitude: his shouting and violence and lack of basic manners that he exhibts so much they must be an integral part of his personality. And I hate it!

I agree that with regards to Locke and Ben they can be very self centered and wrapped up in their own little world a lot of the time, but (well apart form the terrible writing in Eggtown) when Locke is your leader he doesn't dictate to you like Jack does, and has a far more open mind. And when Ben is your leader (if you're lucky enough not to get shot or gassed or sent on a suicide mission by him) at least he's always nice and polite to you! If Jack wasn't so, well, Jack-ish in personality I seriously do wonder if I'd like him a hell of a lot more based on the actions and decisions he's taken. But he isn't, so I don't, lol.

Yeah I do think yours is a good point in Jack saying what he did about them getting on the helicopter, since he did make it clear that the Freighter people were coming to help and that he promised to get everyone home safely and yeah that may well be what he genuinely meant. But the way he said it made him come across not very well! It could have been phrased in a more generic manner, rather than to imply that he's responsible for every action that someone takes only after his say so.

[KatesFate]

Ah if only the show's creators had been brave enough to follow their original plan to have Jack killed off after a few episodes! Fair enough that Jack has his general fans as well as his die hard ones and on his own I think he's a character with a horrible personality, but when compared to most of the other Lost characters he has nothing special or unique or mysterious about him...nothing that makes him stand out as an individual. Yes he stands out, but only because the effort has been made to include him in so many scenes and episodes and storylines.

`

There sure is something that makes him stand out as a character and you are all discussing it right now. Jack stands out because he is a control freak, he infuriates people, and acts as if he is the only person on the island who can save them all. Now, I'm not saying that Jack hasn't really irritated me lately, because he so has, but that is what stands out about him. Every show has to have that one character whom you don't know whether to like or hate and I think that character is Jack because he also has his likeable side. Jack is someone you love to hate.

Lets face it if there werent something to his character, this thread wouldn't exist. Oh and Ki, I love the tricky thread title. LOL

[Kiowa Warrior]

Originally Posted by KatesFate

`

There sure is something that makes him stand out as a character and you are all discussing it right now. Jack stands out because he is a control freak, he infuriates people, and acts as if he is the only person on the island who can save them all. Now, I'm not saying that Jack hasn't really irritated me lately, because he so has, but that is what stands out about him. Every show has to have that one character whom you don't know whether to like or hate and I think that character is Jack because he also has his likeable side. Jack is someone you love to hate.

Lets face it if there werent something to his character, this thread wouldn't exist. Oh and Ki, I love the tricky thread title. LOL

See I've always had the impression that the characters - yes more than one - in Lost that you don't know whether to love or hate are Ben, Locke and Sawyer. From their initial introductions and early actions and personality traits you've got Ben (well Ben/Henry) being a manipulative liar and a pretty ruthless leader, Locke acting as if a near death plane crash on an Island full of mysterious jungle monsters is the best thing that could have happed, and Sawyer being selfish and wanting to get himself hurt and seemingly not caring about anyone else.

But then you learn more about them, and realise that despite their major flaws and 'bad'/'dark' sides, they can be decent people.

However with Jack he was initially portrayed as the hero and the saviour and the brave and selfless man: in short someone the audience was supposed to rally behind and sympathise with. Unlike the other three characters Jack's flaws and dark edges were introduced a lot later, in an attempt to not make him seem one dimensional. (Which failed pathetically in my view, but that's another rant for later...)

I really don't believe Jack has the complexity or charisma or dubious morals or even screen presence to be a character you love to hate, since he was never introduced as being as ambiguous as say Ben was, and he has been pushed in our faces as being the 'good' guy, which we're supposed to view him as but with a few flaws as well to flesh him out in order for our hero not to be perfect.

Unfortuantely there is lots to Jack's character, and 95% of it is terrible!
And I know I must have deeply shocked people by not following the thread title's implication, for which I've very sorry, lol.

[The_abbott]

I just thought Jack was being a pillock