The one question that really matter.

[Murg]

'How can I save the island?' Um ... what about 'How can I save the people on the island?'

I think this kind of sums up the issues I have with Locke ....

[Beach Crew]

This thread makes me happy, lol.

I totally agree. It's like Boone all over again (which was why I was so panicked with Hurley going off into the jungle with Locke. You need to watch out if Locke has visions and then suggests you go on a jungle adventure together) - Locke cares more about the island than the people on it.

Surely it's more important to make sure his friends are safe first rather than the island? Sigh.

[Murg]

That's it exactly. Even if saving the island equates to saving the people, or is a necessary aspect of saving the people, surely it's still inherently wrong to care first and foremost about a place rather than the dozens of lives (including a baby) on it? I think that's pretty twisted. I thought for a moment it was going to be a morality test, and that caring about the people rather than the island would prove to be the key to worthiness ... but no. But then I've a sneaking suspicion that Jacob's more morally dubious than just about anyone else in the programme ....

[lost-lover]

I see the point. I think though, that after everything that's happened to Locke he's views the island as his home, it's given him back his reason to live, helped him shed his demons of his father (though admittedly it was Sawyer who killed him ). I'd like to believe that when Locke said "How can I save the island." his thoughts were centered on the people who inhabit it, but I doubt it. I don't think Locke was being heartless, he just has his priorities mixed up.
It's summed up really, in Ben pointing out that Locke's getting more manipulative; said shortly after Locke gets Hurley to stay with them when they are searching for the cabin. I loved that little scene:
Ben: He actually thinks staying was his idea. Not bad, John. Not bad at all.
Locke: I'm not you.
Ben: You're certainly not.

[Him]

Given that 'saving the Island' is what Ben's been bleating on about for a while, that Ben's indicated his time as the chosen one is over, and that Locke probably considers Jacob and associated visions as being somewhat related to the Island itself, I don't think Locke's choice of words are too surprising really. I don't believe the circumstances allow his words to be analysed so that you can determine his priorities, if he's even actually decided on them — I can easily imagine Locke dismissing it as a semantic issue not worthy of his thought as there's no real practical difference.

I can see how people can think of this as Locke not giving two hoots for the people on the Island, but I get the feeling that if Locke was presented with the choice of either 'Save the island and kill everyone on it' or 'Destroy the island and save everyone on it', he'd choose the latter (assuming it has no 'greater good' purpose).

[Murg]

Originally Posted by Him

Given that 'saving the Island' is what Ben's been bleating on about for a while, that Ben's indicated his time as the chosen one is over, and that Locke probably considers Jacob and associated visions as being somewhat related to the Island itself, I don't think Locke's choice of words are too surprising really. I don't believe the circumstances allow his words to be analysed so that you can determine his priorities, if he's even actually decided on them — I can easily imagine Locke dismissing it as a semantic issue not worthy of his thought as there's no real practical difference.

I can see how people can think of this as Locke not giving two hoots for the people on the Island, but I get the feeling that if Locke was presented with the choice of either 'Save the island and kill everyone on it' or 'Destroy the island and save everyone on it', he'd choose the latter (assuming it has no 'greater good' purpose).

Well, anything can and should be analysed, though I'd agree if you'd said that the circumstances don't allow for a conclusive interpretation (though when do they ever?). Nor am I in any sense 'surprised' by Locke's choice of terminology. But yes ... even I think, presented with a clear pair of options, he'd choose the people over the island too on the strength of what's happened thus far. Yet he's so malleable and so easily manipulated by anything that makes him feel special that I half-suspect an assurance that the island is more important than the people - even from the island itself - would be enough to make him choose the island. And yes, I get that it's a semantic issue and that if he were asked to analyse what he'd said he'd come out with 'Well, of course I'm thinking of the people' ... but:

a) even subconsciously I think the notion of the island and his ability to stay on it regardless is perhaps more important to him than human life (he did, after all, set Sayid on Sawyer and give him a knife purely to turn suspicion off himself) and;

b) the fact that he references the island before the people, regardless of what he means, is disturbing in itself. Hurley, for example, would've asked how to save the people. Even Sawyer would've asked how to save the people rather than the island ... if he didn't just ask how he could save himself .

[Kiowa Warrior]

Let's not forget that that last time Locke was around the majority of his fellow crash survivors glorious leader Jack tried twice to execute him while the rest just stood around gawping for a while, so you can't really blame him for not having the safety of certain people at the forefront of his mind

Defending and promoting the wellbeing of the Island has always - especially now in S4 - been a defining characterstic of Island Locke, so I don't think it's too surprising that his first though is towards the Island that's given him so much. On the face of it yes it seems that such a question - such an initial state of mind - is quite harsh, but given the circumstances (both Locke's own personal ones and the fact that everyone is getting deeper into a war for not only personal survival but for greater stakes as well) I think it does make sense that he wants to think of and fight for the Island first, especially since such a move will also safeguard everyone on it.

[lost-lover]

I'm curious about how he's going to move the island.

[monster-eats-pilot]

Same. It's not everyday that you move an island

[Reed]

I have to take K.W and Him's point of views here.

Locke wants to defend the Island first and foremost because he knows it is more important in the "grand scheme of things", while in doing so he saves the people on it. They are one in the same in a sense.

And yes Jack wanted Locke dead while no one tried to help him - so do I blame Locke for wanting to save the Island BEFORE the people on it - if that is indeed the case? No.

I loved the scene between Christian and Locke; intriguing to say the least. Christian appears to know what is going on, but where was Jacob?

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by Kiowa Warrior

Let's not forget that that last time Locke was around the majority of his fellow crash survivors glorious leader Jack tried twice to execute him while the rest just stood around gawping for a while, so you can't really blame him for not having the safety of certain people at the forefront of his mind

That may well be the case, but what about the rest of the Losties. Claire, Aaron, Sawyer, Hurley...heck, even Ben and the Others that Locke has become so chummy with? Shouldn't he want to save the people that stuck by him? And if I'm honest, I don't really get the whole, "Jack tried to shoot me so I'm not bothered what happens to everyone" thing . Really it shouldn't matter. Jack is one person. If Locke had any soul/conscience he'd be trying to help his fellow Losties.

But this is Locke and he can do no wrong apparently

[Murg]

Originally Posted by Reed

I have to take K.W and Him's point of views here.

Locke wants to defend the Island first and foremost because he knows it is more important in the "grand scheme of things", while in doing so he saves the people on it. They are one in the same in a sense.

And yes Jack wanted Locke dead while no one tried to help him - so do I blame Locke for wanting to save the Island BEFORE the people on it - if that is indeed the case? No.

I loved the scene between Christian and Locke; intriguing to say the least. Christian appears to know what is going on, but where was Jacob?

'Knows' in what sense though? He holds the island in very high esteem, as far as I can see it, because it's a powerful entity that has the ability to make him feel special ... never mind that it treats the non-special (or those it deems so) very unfavourably indeed. But I don't see that he actually 'knows' it's more imperative to save the island than the people on it - sure, narratively speaking it may prove to be a key factor, but Locke has no proof and precious little evidence. Actually I rather hope (though I don't expect) the island or whatever it is is eventually shown up to be a manipulative fraud - as I said previously, I feel far too many people are venerating an entity that has a track record in doling out cancers and other similarly unpleasant whims. Terry O'Quinn gave an excellent and insightful interview on this very topic, in fact, about how Locke's too prepared to jump (or, more accurately, to push other people) purely on the say-so of this frankly dubious being. I must look it out again.

Re Jack and Locke's history ... as Beachy says, Jack is one person. Most of those people have done nothing to get on Locke's bad side.

(Anyone, by the way, who's saying they aren't surprised by Locke's choice of phrase, I agree entirely ... that wasn't my point. My point was that it's fairly indecent to give semantic preference to a dubious entity that's bribed you in the past rather than a collection of unequivocally genuine human lives. But yeah ... I think it was about the least surprising thing he could've said. I just think it was extremely dismaying. Or I would if I still cared.)

[Lauren [is Lost]]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

This thread makes me happy, lol.

I totally agree. It's like Boone all over again (which was why I was so panicked with Hurley going off into the jungle with Locke. You need to watch out if Locke has visions and then suggests you go on a jungle adventure together) - Locke cares more about the island than the people on it.

Surely it's more important to make sure his friends are safe first rather than the island? Sigh.

I agree...