Ben Didn't Kill Dharma

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by The_abbott

Ben was involved in the gassing so he did kill Dharma. Even Locke was sickened by Ben's actions.

Locke = Murderer
Ben = Mass Murderer
Hurley = Hit and Run Murderer

Not really..Ben killed Roger..that hardly encompasses 'Dharma'. For one thing Roger wasn't a willing Dharmarite, and furthermore one man doesn't embody 'Dharma'..not unless that man was DeGroot.

Originally Posted by esn

Ok so Ben 'only' killed his pappa fair enough.

But Im not convinced RE Dhrama - Ive always belived that they could simply represent one side of the islands purpose. Indeed, Ben made the comment that the island rejected him - so maybe he isnt doing the right thing by the island after all?

Indeed - I just think it's fair to highlight this fact as it would have conveniently gone unnoticed otherwise. We have to give Ben his due after the bashing he received last season.

Yes, Ben has certainly had his run-ins with the Island..but then, who hasn't? What i'm saying is that just because the island lifted it's protection from Ben, it doesn't mean that his stance (side) is the wrong one..as Ben later says - "destiny is a fickle b-yatch" - indeed it is. The island has been waiting for Locke a long time, and so Ben's 'sickness' is more associated with the island wanting to facilitate to ascension of the next (and perhaps original) 'chosen one'.

I don't think the island likes Dharma anymore than Ben does..Ben respects some quarters of the regime, but overall they had to go.

Also, Ben's sickness could be viewed as part of the chain of events. Just thought i'd throw another one in, since I believe that the island always has a plan.

Originally Posted by -x-madegurl-x-

What on earth are you talking about!?! If this was any other character, bar Locke, you'd be putting all blame on them.
Ben commited the sin, he killed them... I say it's more his doing than anybody else.
Coming up with an idea is one thing, but commiting it is something very different.

Not at all..Ben didn't kill Dharma, so i'm not sure what proof I need to provide other than a copy of Cabin Fever?

If it turned out that Sawyer didn't kill Cooper I would certainly not condemn him..if it turned out he didn't kill Duckett, I certainly would retract my previous scorn. Unfortunately we know for sure that he did those things. This is why I always asked people to bash with caution when bashing Ben - I pleaded with people not to jump the gun..to wait for *proof*. People didn't listen. If i shout vindication, it's only cos it's due.

Just to clarify that scene - Ben *didn't* kill Dharma - that was the then leaders of the Others doing..those leaders being Alpert and company (Jacob, Widmore?). Back in the day I said just this..i noted the pat on the shoulder that Alpert gave Ben (a well done for getting rid of Papa Linus)..suggesting that Alpert was the string-puller and Ben was merely an undergraduate. Of course if it turns out that Ben lied to Hugo, then I'll retract my stance, however I very much doubt Ben's innocence in terms of not killing Dharma is anything but canon.

Originally Posted by The_abbott

LOL sometimes I think Roco lives on Planet Ben

Well i don't know how else to view that scene - if it's anything but the writers telling us that Ben *didnt* kill Dharma then I don't know what is? It is very rare that i've been wrong with Ben - my views are in the archives for all to see..I haven't wavered..i've just waited patiently for history to repeat itself

I may live on planet Ben however..it's on the dark side of right.

Originally Posted by Lauren [is Lost]

LOL. Exactly!! I find it hilarious how Roco always sticks up for Ben and thinks the sun shines out of his backside, yet when another character does something remotely nasty they get absolutely slated. Lol...it does amuse me

As I said above, how else would you interpret that scene? Are you saying that Ben authorised or led the purge of those Dharmadudes? That was surely an out and out statement by the writers to say that Ben didn't kill Dharma..rather his bosses did. it's the perfect way for them to start revealing the hierachy of the island and the history of the Others/Hostiles(etc).

As I said, I am very rarely wrong when it comes to Ben. I realise this infuriates some, but I am willing to be proved wrong. Yes, it may sound arrogant, but please don't mistake arrogance for great reading and choosing of characters. It's funny that any defence I make of Ben is viewed as me thinking the sun shines out of his backside - yes, he is my joint favourite, but every one has favourites. Furthermore I always back my arguments up with solid content. People don't always want to backdown so they dismiss certain views against characters they dislike.

What I hope people understand is that my favourite characters don't do the same things as some of the others..they are far more ambigious from an audience standpoint - is it any wonder why the island chosen both Locke and Ben to be it's chosen one..and I also chose the exact same 2 characters as my favourite way back when, before the end-game was in sight. What im saying is, this is no coincidence..the narrative of Ben and Locke is strikingly similar - they are the type of characters who some may hate, but without much justification in the grand scheme of things (think about it, so many now like Ben MUCH more than they did this time last year). Ben and Locke are constantly planted with 'suggestion' - however as we've seen time and time again, this suggestion (knifing Naomi, 'purging' dharma etc) usually grows from the soil of misconception. I am someone who looks beyond that - I look deep into the characters motivation and decipher what is real and what is smoke and mirrors geared towards creating a devisive character arc which is actually going somewhere.

I am also careful to consider other peoples comments..it's unwise to say that I am unfairly championing Ben..because when the dust settles, will you all have the same opinion that you now have? The archives are littered, absolutely littered with outrageous claims and 'LOL's' over my defence of Ben..yet with each passing episode Ben is becoming the champion of the show. I once stated "WE are the Others". Indeed..just look..our stock is growing with each other episode. More and more people are re-considering their hatred of Ben and the Others. How many of you felt goosebumps and a heightened heartbeat when Alpert and friends crept out of the jungle the other week? Yes, that's how I feel each and every time Ben utters a word. Welcome to my world..welcome to the Others.

So basically, I think many will have to rewatch this scene and look at the narrative. Ben didn't kill Dharma..pretty much proof if ever we needed it. But hey, if i'm wrong then i'll admit it.

As for my stance towards other characters - yup, I don't like Sawcakes (for example), but damn i'll credit the man whenever I feel he deserves it. I'll never lock-e him out of my Orchid, all he has to do is knock.. and the man has been knocking recently. My door is ajar (of ranch dressing). I don't doubt my fairness..perhaps I am the fairest?

Yeah it's a ramble, but I had to respond to this injustice.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by esn

I have to stick up for Roco here.

1) Ben wasnt responsible for the Dhrama masaccare, he was only responsible for the killing of Roger. Other people gave the order.

2) Ben may be saving the world here.

Exactly..

But on the other hand, and why Roco does need to crictise Ben more:

1) He still took part in an act of genocide

Can you genocide one person?
Perhaps Ben did know about the plan to purge the Dharmacats..however I suggest we use caution as i'd hate to see history repeat itself. All we know for sure is that Ben killed Papa Linus - which seems to be a requirement of the Island. However I wont get into that, killing Roger was indeed wrong, as if it needs to be said..but if it makes some people happy, then yes that was wrong. But this is not what we're debating here - no-one is disputing his hand in Roger's death. People are somehow still arguing that Ben DID kill 'Dharma'. I respectfully disagree with those people and will give thread bumpage at somepoint in space and time.

And for those who claim that Roger is Dharma - look at it this way, if someone killed Sawyer, would they have killed 'The Losties'?

Back to the role in genocide thing..if we are going down that route, can we 'now' blame Hugo for running over and murdering Pryce? Seeing as the same could apply to him..not to mention the rest of the L-cats who were apparently "bystanders" in the genocide of the Others a season or so ago

2) We only know Bens side of events - and he could be lying, and has Ben himself pointed out, the island allowed him to get sick, where as it made John get better.

As I said in an above post, you could be right..however I seriously doubt this is the case. This is not meant in a disrespectful way (as I know it could be misconstrued), but watch that scene again - look at the idignation and absolute denial Ben delivers - this is a man who doesn't break sweat when he tells half-truths. Ben is certainly not lying here..he has no need to at this point. I've got a degree in Benology - I think he is as good as his word here..the scene just doesn't warrent any smoke and mirrors..this was one episode when Ben was his most 'open' - "destiny is a fickle B-yatch", sharing the candy with Hugo (etc) - this was a raw and de-masked Ben. There was certainly no mind games in operation imHo.

Also, yes the island allowed Ben to get sick and vice versa Locke - however what has this got to do with Dharma? The purge was years ago..I don't think we should confuse the island's 'punishment' of Ben and the whole Dharma purge thing..

Originally Posted by Reed

What was interesting in that scene was the choice of words.

Ben was NEVER the Leader of the D.I - though he insinuated he was.

So who was the Leader of the D.I? Horiss? I think not as he was a Mathematician.

I think you misunderstand - Ben meant that the leaders of 'The Others' purged the D.I. - those leaders probably being Alpert and Jacob-types.

The insinuation is that Ben eventually became the leader of the Others..but at the time of the purge, he wasn't their leader. Hence he didn't order/initiated/particpate directly in the purge of the D.I.

As for the leaders of the D.I., well we know they it was the brainchild of Karen and Gerald DeGroot. We also know that Hanso brought them and their 'initiative' to the island, and that Marvin Candle appears in all of the Orientation videos and seems or seemed fairly high ranking. We should also bear in mind Charles Widmore - perhaps he was a silent leader, operating from beyond the curtain, as it were. So it depends what we mean by leader..we have a few options..however as for Ben, he never said he was leader of the D.I.

Originally Posted by IM-LOST-WITH-LOST

Who say's you can trust Ben's word!? He's the biggest liar EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, I get the feelings that you dont like Ben.
Someone on the Internets clearly doesn't like Ben. This is just not on ILWL!

I also think we can take the 'Ever' font up a notch..and can we throw in some red and emphasise the 'R'?

I'm joking of course. One day you'll change your mind. I'll patiently wait

[Murg]

I'm glad this post's been bumped. I wasn't ignoring this topic at all, incidentally - there was a post from me more or less agreeing with your statement of fact (only without the buckets of love, obviously), but it was wiped/disappeared, and I couldn't (and still can't) get a post through moderation to the helpdesk. I'd really like to know what happened to it if you've got a moment.

[Magnovey Phoenix]

I like Ben very much but I must say he is part of killing Dharma. He is not responsible for it but he is a part. He lowered the sonic fence waves so that the Hostiles can enter the peaceful village of Dharma. For me that is taking a part in this. But he is not a liar, he is just trying to hold things in his hands and sometimes is obligate not to tell the real truth. Some of them could handle with it like Jack or others who just want to get of that paradise aka Island.
If i was there I would rely on Ben 100%. He knows more than we or anybody else can see. I mean who could have guessed that he takes control over Cerberus??? God (or Jacob) knows what else is he hiding and not telling to John or anyone else.
But I can seem to help it when I saw disappointment in his eyes. He is just jealous of Locke cos Island chose Lock and not him even though he had been fighting for it!