Ben the hyprocrite - not such a "good guy" now??

[esn]

Ok Ill add more to this at a later point because its late but to start off the debate Ill leave you with a couple of quotes, and then some quick thoughts

"I will not kill anyone who does not deserve to be killed" Ben to Micheal, Meeting Kevin Johnson (I think)

"I cant kill you, but I can kill your daughter, Penny, like you killed mine" Ben to Widomore, Shape of Things to Come. (not the exact quote but more or less)

Now unless Ben is conning Widmore, which is unlikey IMO since he did seem rather convincing to me, this is a rather a big turn around inside of a year or so dont you think?

I mean, this is such a disgustingly hyprocritcal stance, at least I think. I mean, what has Penny done to Ben? What has Penny, other than being Widmores daughter, got to do with Widmores organisation. She near enough hates her father for crying out loud!! From what we've seen, she has nothing do with him anymore, and even went behind his back to try and get back the man she loved most, Desmond, when her Dad tried to break them up, tried to force Desmond away from her. So from what I can see, shes nothing to do with him anymore. In short, shes as innocent as it gets. So why target her Ben, what legitamate reason do you have to try and kill her?? No bigger hyprocrite than a murderous one.

(Intersting side point, she doesn't half sound similar to Alex now that Ive put it like that)


What Widmores men did was disgusting, and horrible and sickening and many other words under the sun. But at least (from what I can remember anyways forgive me if I am worng) he hasnt made any protestations of not killing innocent people (although that still makes him close to Ben in bad guy stakes - and we still dont know his motives, as much as we know Bens)

Maybe further proof of my claim that Lost isnt about good v evil here?

[firebreathingfishies]

Ben said something along the lines of 'When you let your grief turn to anger you'll never get rid of it' to Sayid, so it's obvious he's on a revenge kick after the death of Alex. Personally, if someone shot my son point blank in front of me, I think I would be perfectly capable of doing what Ben is doing (apart from apparently teleporting and the like )

But in killing Penny it would still devestate Charles. We've never actually seen Penny and Charles on screen together, so there's little we know about their relationship anyway. Penny could be a proper Daddy's girl I imagine even if they do have a rocky relationship, it would be a big blow to Charles if she died. I mean, Alex and Ben weren't really that close and we've seen how Ben's reacted

[The_abbott]

Ben's only a good guy when it suits him.

To be honest I feel the entire cast have become "unlikeable". Maybe thats what is intended but they are all just a bunch of killers, cheats, alcholics.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by esn

Ok Ill add more to this at a later point because its late but to start off the debate Ill leave you with a couple of quotes, and then some quick thoughts

"I will not kill anyone who does not deserve to be killed" Ben to Micheal, Meeting Kevin Johnson (I think)

"I cant kill you, but I can kill your daughter, Penny, like you killed mine" Ben to Widomore, Shape of Things to Come. (not the exact quote but more or less)

Now unless Ben is conning Widmore, which is unlikey IMO since he did seem rather convincing to me, this is a rather a big turn around inside of a year or so dont you think?

I mean, this is such a disgustingly hyprocritcal stance, at least I think. I mean, what has Penny done to Ben? What has Penny, other than being Widmores daughter, got to do with Widmores organisation. She near enough hates her father for crying out loud!! From what we've seen, she has nothing do with him anymore, and even went behind his back to try and get back the man she loved most, Desmond, when her Dad tried to break them up, tried to force Desmond away from her. So from what I can see, shes nothing to do with him anymore. In short, shes as innocent as it gets. So why target her Ben, what legitamate reason do you have to try and kill her?? No bigger hyprocrite than a murderous one.

(Intersting side point, she doesn't half sound similar to Alex now that Ive put it like that)


What Widmores men did was disgusting, and horrible and sickening and many other words under the sun. But at least (from what I can remember anyways forgive me if I am worng) he hasnt made any protestations of not killing innocent people (although that still makes him close to Ben in bad guy stakes - and we still dont know his motives, as much as we know Bens)

Maybe further proof of my claim that Lost isnt about good v evil here?

I don't get this? How is Ben being hypocritical when he hasn't even killed or tried to kill Penny yet?

Also, as you said, we don't know for sure whether he will actually kill Penny. I'm not saying he was bluffing, but there's a world of difference between wanting to kill someone and actually killing them. Until Ben has actually seen this threat through, or attempted it, i just don't see how he can be called a "hypocrite" - that just doesn't make sense to me

Let's remember - Widmore "changed the rules" - he killed the mans daughter. I don't know a single person who could swear with absolute certainty that they wouldn't want to seek revenge on a person who killed their daughter..

Also, you mentioned that it's a big turnaround for Ben in under a year - I would submit that grief often takes alot longer than this to leave someone..grief can last for years..surely we can sympathise with Ben's grief, rather than lament the man for threatening revenge? He lost his daughter..image the pain of such a loss..there can surely be no greater pain in the world, than the loss of a loved one..indeed, not only did Ben lose alex, but the last words she heard him utter, was that he didn't love her - how he wishes he could take that back..how he wishes he could reassure her that he was only trying to purchase time and save her life...

I sympathise so much with Ben..he's made the ultimate sacrifice..albeit unintentional, he has given his only child for us..

Ben wants Widmore to feel the same pain that he is feeling - we are all human beings..we have all felt rage and grief at some point..we have all lashed out at our enemies and said things that we don't mean. Let us not cast judgement on Benji just yet..let us take him to our bossoms and caress him..let us be his bridge over troubled waters..let us shelter him with our umbrella ella ella ella

[JB Sawyer]

Sorry Roco Widmore didn't kill Alex. If you're going to keep going on about Cooper having nothing to do with Papa and Mama Ford's deaths then I sure as hell am not letting you suggest Widmore killed Alex.

And I'd also take the grief of losing both your parents, your father blowing his brains out in front of you, to be just as bad as the grief of losing your daughter that wasn't even your biological daughter, merely a baby you kidnapped and decided to father.

It's not Ben so much that I'm finding hypocritical but your above defence of Benjamin and condemnation of Sawyer. Then again, like person like fave

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by JB Sawyer

Sorry Roco Widmore didn't kill Alex. If you're going to keep going on about Cooper having nothing to do with Papa and Mama Ford's deaths then I sure as hell am not letting you suggest Widmore killed Alex.

And I'd also take the grief of losing both your parents, your father blowing his brains out in front of you, to be just as bad as the grief of losing your daughter that wasn't even your biological daughter, merely a baby you kidnapped and decided to father.

It's not Ben so much that I'm finding hypocritical but your above defence of Benjamin and condemnation of Sawyer. Then again, like person like fave

..Widmore gave the order to have Alex killed- he was the one who changed the rules. The Cooper thing is entirely different - Cooper had *no* intent to kill Sawyer's mom..he was out for a con, whereas Charles Widmore intentionally gave the order to kill everyone on that island..that was his doing..those were his orders. I hope you can see the difference between someone unintentionally being part of a chain of events (Coopers), and someone literally and intentionally changing the chain of events. it's about intent at the end of the day, and you know as well as I do that Cooper didn't intend for Sawyer's mom to be killed - Sawyer dad on the otherhand..as I said in the other thread: there's your killer. ..and for the record, i've never once said that Cooper's actions had *nothing* to do with the death of Sawyer parents - that would be ludacris, of course he played a part..however his part was clearly not of the intention for Sawyer's dad to kill Sawyer's mom..

The fact that Alex was not Ben's biological daughter is certainly irrelvant imho - just ask the thousands of parents who adopt a child out of love, and love that child as if they were their own. It is not blood which ties a family..it is love. Just ask Locke..his family screwed him over..just ask Jack..his family screwed him over...just ask Jin..his mom screwed him over..just ask Ben..his dad screwed him over...you see, sometimes blood ties aren't all they're cracked up to be. Ben loved Alex as his own.

I'm not denying the grief that young Sawyer must have (and clearly stiff does) suffer from having his parents ripped from him - that was not the question presented to us in this thread, so excuse me if I didn't lift him aloft and praise him as my king. Seriously though, i agree - Sawyer too must have suffered great grief from his loss. However I still find it strange that you would belittle Ben's loss due to the fact that Alex wasn't his 'blood' daughter Again, in relation to Ben's grief - he knows the man fully responsible - Widmore (via Keamy)..whereas Sawyer's rage is somewhat misdirected - he's blaming Cooper for everything, even though Cooper didn't intend for Sawyer's dad to do what he did. Whilst i do sympathise with Sawyer and I certainly can understand why he'd attribute blame to t only man alive who had a hand in the 'chain of events' which led papa Ford to murder his wife and then himself, I find it hard to support his blind pursuit and execution of Cooper, for the simple reason of lack of intent. Sawyer's rage is less sympathetic and 'reasonable' than Ben's imho



EDIT: I'm not sure you last comment holds weight considering you are yet to blame Sawyer or Sawyer's dad for anything I will not defend Ben for the indenfensible..it just so happens that his morality is aligned with my own..and i make no bones about admitting that - i say the same for Locke, Eko and Ana - i can relate to their mindsets..their actions and their ethics..especially in relation to Locke and Ben.

[charlierocks]

I think that Ben fights better with words, as Locke said the most dangerous thing is his mouth. If someone threatened to kill my kids I'd be obviously horrified and the mental torture of waiting for that to happen would probably be as bad as the actual grief.
On another point I thought that Widmore knew as much as Ben, so would he know that Alex wasn't his blood Daughter, so therefore wouldn't be breaking the rules. I know Ben loved her as a Daughter, the point I'm making is if the rules are set that no blood relative can get killed he has bent the rules not broke them, by allowing Ben to admit he didn't care for Alex before the killing.

[esn]

btw I havent forgotten about this, Im just really busy - Ill probably respond to all the posts Wednesday at the earliest

[monster-eats-pilot]

Ben's never a good guy and I KNEW there'd be a post from Roco defending Ben

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by charlierocks

I think that Ben fights better with words, as Locke said the most dangerous thing is his mouth.

Yeah, he's a very intelligent man - some might call him a genius. It's interesting to contrast adult ben with young Ben - who was never the greatest of talkers from what we saw.

Originally Posted by CR

On another point I thought that Widmore knew as much as Ben, so would he know that Alex wasn't his blood Daughter, so therefore wouldn't be breaking the rules. I know Ben loved her as a Daughter, the point I'm making is if the rules are set that no blood relative can get killed he has bent the rules not broke them, by allowing Ben to admit he didn't care for Alex before the killing.

Hmm, i'm not sure the rules stipulated that 'blood relatives' couldn't be killed, because Widmore didn't contest that fact. What he did contest was responsibility - he shifted the blame for the death on Ben for not surrendering (at least that's how I interpreted their final scene in 4.09). So whilst Charles changed the rules, I think the criteria of those rules was that no family members could be harmed. But of course you would be correct 'if' the rules did only stipulate blood relatives - although i don't think Ben would have made such an oversight.

I think it's also interesting to consider the language that Ben used to describe Widmore's treachery - he said that he "changed" the rules, and not that he "broke" them. I think this is intentional, and perhaps alludes to something 'greater'.

I'm wondering about the context if I were to say that someone 'changed' history..this suggests re-writing the history books..cutting and splicing (editing) history/the past to re-shape the future ..whereas 'breaking' history doesn't make much sense, it would allude to something less duplicitous, perhaps.

I'm just trying to make sense of Ben's wording by applying it to another context.

[esn]

Ok sorry this is late but better late than never.

Originally Posted by firebreathingfishies

Ben said something along the lines of 'When you let your grief turn to anger you'll never get rid of it' to Sayid, so it's obvious he's on a revenge kick after the death of Alex. Personally, if someone shot my son point blank in front of me, I think I would be perfectly capable of doing what Ben is doing (apart from apparently teleporting and the like )

But in killing Penny it would still devestate Charles. We've never actually seen Penny and Charles on screen together, so there's little we know about their relationship anyway. Penny could be a proper Daddy's girl I imagine even if they do have a rocky relationship, it would be a big blow to Charles if she died. I mean, Alex and Ben weren't really that close and we've seen how Ben's reacted

So your saying its acceptable that Ben wants to kill Penny, just to get back at Charles - oook. I think you need to have a look at what you are saying here FBF.

Originally Posted by D-Roc

I don't get this? How is Ben being hypocritical when he hasn't even killed or tried to kill Penny yet?

Also, as you said, we don't know for sure whether he will actually kill Penny. I'm not saying he was bluffing, but there's a world of difference between wanting to kill someone and actually killing them. Until Ben has actually seen this threat through, or attempted it, i just don't see how he can be called a "hypocrite" - that just doesn't make sense to me

Somone can still be a hyprocrite Roco if they say two completly contradictory things. Yes ok, he hasnt actually done it yet Roco, but from saying to Micheal "he doesnt kill innocents" to then saying that hes gonna kill Penny, an innocent, that still makes him a hyprocrite.

Let's remember - Widmore "changed the rules" - he killed the mans daughter. I don't know a single person who could swear with absolute certainty that they wouldn't want to seek revenge on a person who killed their daughter..

Ok first of all, Widmore didnt actually kill Alex, Keamy did. Yes he may have given the order, (and he may not have) but it is not an excuse to say "I was only following orders" - the blame for Alexes death lays at the feet of Keamy.

Second Roco, you seem to be suggesting that its OK for Ben to kill Penny to get back at Widmore - WTF??? How is that ever Ok? Cold blooded revenge is never OK Roco, I would have thought that you of all people should know that

Also, you mentioned that it's a big turnaround for Ben in under a year - I would submit that grief often takes alot longer than this to leave someone..grief can last for years..surely we can sympathise with Ben's grief, rather than lament the man for threatening revenge? He lost his daughter..image the pain of such a loss..there can surely be no greater pain in the world, than the loss of a loved one..indeed, not only did Ben lose alex, but the last words she heard him utter, was that he didn't love her - how he wishes he could take that back..how he wishes he could reassure her that he was only trying to purchase time and save her life...

I sympathise so much with Ben..he's made the ultimate sacrifice..albeit unintentional, he has given his only child for us..