The transformation of James Sawyer Ford

[esn]

Never mind

[esn]

Originally Posted by JB

I'm sorry but how should he? That letter was the last emblem of a childhood lost for Sawyer, a symbol of the suffering that had haunted him for decades. All the emotion that an eight year old possessed in his little body was poured into that letter. And that letter was going to be given to the man that was the direct cause of the suffering. Sawyer's very heart was in that letter. And so when Cooper ripped it up and threw it away like yesterday's trash then the emotion that would have coursed through Sawyer would have been overwhelming. And emotion that strong does strange things to a man and erases all control.

Originally Posted by esn

I do conceed that it must have been painful for Sawyer, and that his heart was in that letter. But at the same time ultimately, Sawyer is responsible for his actions, emotions or no emotions. Yes Cooper may have caused those emotions to errupt, but Sawyer perpertrated the crime and ultimately is responsable. Whilst I havent killed a man and I cant know what it is like, and I wouldnt pretend to be Sawyer. However I do know what it is like to let emotion get the better of you and have no controll. But the bully that I beat up in year 8 isnt responsible for having the living snot beaten out of him by yours turely, I was, and it is somthing that I regret my entire life, that I allowed my emotions do that, and because of that, I have always belived that one should always be able to controll emotions that cause such destruction. Yes Sawyers emotions were 100x stronger, but so was the crime he committed.

Id like to retract my reply to JBs point here. Simply because I had forgotten that he had agreed to my request to agree to disagree, therefore, anything I have said here is null and void in that part of the argument

[esn]

Just to make this a bit clearer:

Originally Posted by Roco

:

You're stepping into the light

I like to think of myself as half in the light and half in the dark

Originally Posted by Roco

Oh no doubt, and i have done in my episode review. I just find it amazing how selective people's (as in the general fan communuty) memories are. A few good deeds does not a saint make..especially when that same man recently executed someone who surrendered, not to mention tried to execute a father right in front of his crying daugther (Sawyer is basically Keamy 0.1)

Oh I do agree - I have made the same point myself re selective memories. But forgive me if I am worng here, and if I am worng, you have every right to pull me up on it (Im currently suffering from exam stress at the moment) Sawyer wanted to simply hand Ben over to Keamy, not execute him at that moment in time, at least that it is my interpertation of it. Further more, he wanted to do so to prevent anymore deaths - he had already seen 3 redshirts get gunned down (dumbass redshirts) and Claire nearly obliterated (how the heck did she survivie that) and was, rightly concerned that they could simply storm the house and slaughter them all - including a weeks old baby. Again, if my memorie of what happened here is incorrect, then please by all means pull me up on it because like I say, this has been a stressful week exams wise, and the events of that episode have been pushed out of my brain somewhat.

But, I gotta say, would you be so withdrawing of praise if that had been Locke risking life to save Claire and those idiot redshirts? Because (and I gotta be fair here) Locke, whilst not being as bad as Sawyer by any means, is hardly a saint himself (ie killing Namoi). Neither for that case, is Ben. Just throwing it out there Roco Because with those 2, I would hold back on praising them, as much as I have done with Sawyer.


Jeez, I knew this would happen - Im defending Sawyer in front of those who hate him and attacking him in front of those who love him

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Originally Posted by JB Sawyer

I'd like to point out I didn't forget about this. I've just decided to leave it, as I see no point indebating when the person you're debating with isn't willing to take your point of view into consideration. How can you debate when people aren't willing to be open to your suggestions and opinions? Simple answer is you can't, you just go round in circles.

Oh come off it JB, the same could be said about you. Just because not everyone agrees with you it doesn't mean your points aren't being considered If anything you're the one who is unwilling to debate since you're the one who is refusing to debate, lol! That's perfectly fine, but you can't cite another person as being unwilling when you're shutting up shop because not all of your points are being agreed with. If you care to look back, you'll see that I applauded your point about whether redemption is ever truely attainable...

I'd just like to state that I never shun debate and never hide. If i have a point to make then i stand by it, but equally I accept when someone makes a stronger point, or an alternative point which i can see merit in. I've merited several of your points in various discussions, but I just don't agree with your overall stance on Sawyer and Locke and Ben

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Firstly, I'm not feeling very eloquent (sp) because I'm recovering from a migraine so you'll have to excuse me . *Looks around hopefully for JB*



I kinda agree with this. If Sawyer had only been in it for a few minutes for a couple of episodes I might've just considered him to be a mean person, who although hot, was a jerk. However, we have gotten to know Sawyer and understand why he is the way he is, which is why I look at his personally traits in a different way to Pickett.

Yes, "jerk" would have summed him up pretty well tbh. I just think that we should be wary of dissing Pickett when had we seen only a few episodes worth of Sawyer, we'd be saying the same thing about him. In many ways Pickett and Sawyer are very much alike - had Pickett had Sawyer's looks 'maybe' he would be more favourable?

And for the record, I really liked Pickett. I liked that he loved his wife, and I totally understood why he beat up Sawyer. It was horrible, but Pickett had just lost his wife and I can't imagine what that would feel like.

Fair play

I agree, Sawyer has two sides to his personality. He can be kind and sweet, but yet he can also be a jerk. However, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Sawyer may have wanted to do what Keemy did but he didn't and let's not forget, he also stopped Karl doing what Keemy did. I'm with you on the Tom thing, that disappointed me so I'm not going to argue with you there.

Yes, but isn't that hypocritical - to stop someone else from doing something bad, yet doing it yourself!?? This is what i'm trying to get across - it's extremely hypocritical of Sawyer..it's like it's one rule for him and another for everyone else..it's a flawed mindset.

Also, he did do a Keamy - he executed Duckett in an even more cowardly way than Keamy executed Alex - at least Keamy established contact first, whereas Sawyer crept up to Duckett in the middle of the night like a rat and popped the poor man ..and indeed, let's not forgot the Tom execution..or the treefrog execution. What is it with Sawyer and executions?

But to compare Sawyer to Keemy, I cannot agree to this. Sawyer acts on impulse, and yes, sometimes that impulse is a bad thing, but as we've been discussing in this thread, Sawyer is controlled by his emotions. And we all know it's very difficult to control ones emotions. Keemy on the other hand had this planned from the offset. He knew exactly what he was going to do, he (or his men) killed Karl and Danielle - it's not like he gave those two a chance to surrender, and I doubt he would've spared Alex unless she'd screamed that she was Ben's daughter. Keemy planned everything whereas Sawyer acted on impulse. There's a difference.

Why? They are very much alike - in many ways Sawyer is much worse than Keamy..and don't forget Sawyer has had more chance to impress us..yet still his brutal executions, bullying, racism, and tormenting still haunt us.

I don't buy this 'sawyer is controlled by emotion's' thing - it strikes me as being an excuse to allow Sawyer to escape blame. I just don't see how this can possibly be used exclusively for Sawyer?? If we're gonna use this 'emotions' excuse then surely it has to extend to 'everyone' and not just Sawyer??

Keamy may be driven by other emotions - but he's still driven by emotions..what makes Sawyer's lust to kill any better than Keamy's or Hitler's? I would even submit that Sawyer's reason for killing Cooper was redundant, since Cooper didn't even kill his mom. We can't use the 'emotions' excuse on this one, surely? If Sawyer had some alturistic grand plan that he was working towards (i.e. saving the world/island..etc) then maybe i could sympathise..but he says it himself time and time again - "i'm looking out for myself". One act of heroism does not a hero make. Sorry, but killing on impulse (which the Duckett and Cooper murders were anything but, btw - since he planned them for a lifetime, lol) doesn't make him better than keamy. Not that Keamy's a great yardstick anyways

I would like to find some agreement in your above statement, but if i'm being honest i just can't..sorry

I know Sawyer may not always be the nicest of people all the time, but he proved himself. He could've just left. He could've ran into the trees with his gun and looked after himself. However, he stayed and pretty much played the main protector. It made a change and surely it's only fair that we fans get to point that out? If it was any other character I imagine many more people would be celebrating.

How did he prove himself? Like i said one act does not a hero make. yes he was brave but i think that Sawyer well knew that had he ran into the jungle by himself then he would have been slaughtered. And let's not forget his attempt to turn Ben over to the wolves - an incredibly selfish act.

Yes, his 'heroics' deserve to be pointed out, but so do the many negative points..i'm just seeking balance and reason before we annoit the man as some sort of 'hero', lol.

Look, sometimes I say long time coz to the viewer it seems a long time - I forget that it's not so long on the island. I'm only human afterall.

Yes, that's fair enough..but i'm just pointing out the facts as you made it seem like they were 'true friends', when Sawyer only started being nice (if you can call it that) for a couple of weeks. Sorry, i know you're defending the man, but likewise, i'm only pointing out the actual facts of the matter

I know Sawyer and Hurley haven't always seen eye to eye and there have been some nasty moments between them. But let's not forget that it was Hurley who made the first move. He went to Sawyer to encourage him to be nice and lead the camp. Surely that shows that Hurley has either forgiven Sawyer or has moved past the hurt? I honestly believe that Sawyer and Hurley are friends now. They live together, they play together, and they're nice to each other. If Hurley was unhappy surely he wouldn't do this?!

No not really, cos Hugo is an incredibly forgiving guy. This says more about Hurley's good nature, than it does Sawyer, surely!!

I'd forgive my worst enemy because that's what my faith teaches me - likewise Hugo, i believe, would also forgive his enemy/someone he didn't like, because it's in his nature..he's Hurley! Seriously..this has nothing to do with Sawyer's 'good nature', but everything to do with the guy (Hugo) who is decent enough to see the good in 'everyone'..

I think you're underestimating Hugo (just my opinion) because he's the kind of guy who has a big heart - of course he would continue to play games with Sawyer etc - because as you said, they have to live together, and Hugo doesn't like bad vibes around him - he's the type of person who feels guilty for his 'bad luck' affecting others, so he tries to do his best to compensate for this perceived bad luck which he brings.

also, look at the final Hugo scene of 4.09 - he clearly didn't want to be responsible for bad vibes/violence..so he agreed to go with Locke. Not because of Locke, but because he didn't want his people to fall out and possible harm one another.

I was actually refering to 4x09. He and Hurley were playfully teasing each other during whatever that game they were playing, and then Sawyer made a comment about Hurley's hair. I think this showed that there can be a change in the way Sawyer teases. Granted, when he is a bully, I don't like it, but when it's playful, it's not as bad. Heck, no. I wouldn't call someone who constantly teased me a friend. But look at it this way. I have friends that constantly tease me over my curly hair (it's that out of control) but I'm ok with this because it's fun and playful. If it was ever to get hurtful I of course would kick off. We need to look at the differences in teasing style.

B, I seriously disagree - he may have only gently teased Hugo in this episode ("Chicken Little") - but that's beside the point. You're using this one occassion and writing off the other 200+ insults and bullying. Sawyer is a bully..yes he toned down in this one episode and has shown some progression this season, but I wouldn't go all out praising the guy, when in the same episode he tries to send a man to death and takes offense at someone else deciding whats best for Hugo, when he has been the most responsible person on the island, for making said persons life a misery. What gives him the right to use Hugo as his personal doormat? Some days he washes him whilst other days he hangs him out to dry? Sorry, that's not right.

I just can't defend a bully B..sorry, but i can't. Bullying is bullying as far as i'm concerned. I'm open to repentance, but equally i need more evidence then him calling someone "sweetheart". I'm sure Hitler had someone he called "sweetheart" every now and then...

Do we ever agree? And I think some of these points are valid, but not all Roco. I'm sorry we never see eye to eye, but I think that Sawyer isn't always the villain that you (and others) see

Likewise..some of your points are indeed valid but I think you (and others) are trying too hard to defend the indefensible..i'm sorry for spoiling his 'parade' in this ole thread, but i hope you can appreciate that I only seek balance

I think Sawyer is Keamy 0.1..