The transformation of James Sawyer Ford

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by esn

See my above points. I would argue that what makes us human in the first place is the fact we find it hard to kill (as a general rule). Yes our emotions are powerful but it is our human side that allows us (or should) overcome them. If we dont, then thats the point we lose our humanity

But our humanity is our emotions esn, why can't you see that? It's what separates us from robots - we have emotions. Emotions govern our very being. If you had no emotions, no will in the world would enable you to do anything. Emotions are our human side.

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

All we need now is for Pickett to call someone "sweetheart" and he'd be forgiven by the fan community for all his 'sins'.

I think Sawyer still has much work to do - you can't abuse/torment people one minute and the next act as if you're their best friend. Hypocritical (on Sawyer's part)..much?

I don't think so. I never saw Pickett do anything that was deemed as "good" or "heroic" apart from loving his wife (was Colleen his wife?) and this is coming from a fan of Pickett.

He does have a lot of work to do, but I think that he's come a long, long way from season one Sawyer. He and Hurley, as JB has pointed out, have been friends for a long time now and the teasing of Hurley has stopped. It's always in a friendly manner now.

Originally Posted by esn

Good
I know this is me, and I find it scary that Im agreeing a lot with Roco these days (compared to when we were at channel 4) . But I belive that if Sawyer were truley sorry, and regretted what he did, why did he execute Tom in revenge, who didnt nearly have the same level of history? Sorry but cold blooded murder like that can never be understood, and as humans we should rise above that sort of thing IMO

*Takes a minute to gander at that smilie*

Look, as JB has pointed out, nobody was particularly happy about what happened between Tom and Sawyer. It was disappointing. However, the only thing I can put it down to is the whole Walt thing. Sawyer blames Tom for his shooting and what happened to Walt and so he shot him in revenge. It's a bad emotion but we all have it and can't control how we react because of it.

No its not the same thing. Christ Im crap at this um how do I explain??? Cooper is evil - yes that is true. Now put him to one side for a moment. When I say beast, I mean animal, not somone like Jack the Ripper, who was an evil beast. And Im not even calling Sawyer an animal, because an animal is wild and out of control, but what he did was animal like, it went behoynd human instinct and into animal instinct - to kill. Its the ablity to not to kill someone because they call you big nose, or they steal your chair that makes humans human. In a sense, Sawyer lost his humanity in that moment, but wasnt pure evil (though he was pretty close to it)

But aren't we humans classed as an animal? A dog can choose whether it wants to fight or run away so what separates humans from animals? Apart from the whole talking thing. I'm sorry hun, but I don't think I agree with this. Sawyer is human through and through and I believe that is why he acted the way he did. Human's are powered by instinct and emotion and that is what led him to do what he did. And I don't think he can be classed as evil because an evil person does something through deep planning and they are cold and calculated. Sawyer is not.

Oh Ive tried to do that as well - but I like to keep it in proportion. I just felt that this congratulations of Sawyer wasnt being kept in proportion to the rest of his character.

And I would have thought that you would have been Beachy

But I think they are! As you've pointed out, Sawyer isn't the best of people and so what's wrong with us celebrating his good deed?

And sure, I like to praise him but I like to keep it on what I hope is an even level. Obviously I have some swooning fan girl moments, lol.

I think so too

(but I have missed conversing with you though)

Even when we don't agree?

***

JB, I really don't know what I'd do without you. I agree with everything that you have said .

[esn]

Originally Posted by JB Sawyer

Likewise. I never said it was natural to kill, please quote me on where I said that. I said it was natural for our emotions to precede our calm, cool or 'humanity', as you like to call it. It takes no will at all, when emotion takes over there is nothing that we can do to stop it; like the first time we blurt out 'I love you', there's very rarely any willpwer behind it, it's an outpouring of emotion. When push comes to shove the heart will always overpower the head. I'm not relating this directly to murder,as most murders are planned out and certainly not done with any provocation to envoke the heightened emotions as portrayed in the Cooper incident. Emotion can overpower us, that is human nature, and that is what overtook Sawyer.

Well you say potatoe...

I do see your point that emotions can overpower us. But when it comes to somthing like this, surely Sawyer should have been able to controll himself here? Even in raw emotion, there is still a human being inside of us, and ultimately in control.

Agree to disagree on this one.

Saving Claire, warning the red shirts repeatedly, accepting Miles, usherig Claire, Hurley, Aaron and Miles away from danger from Smokey, protecting Hurley. Willy nilly? I don't think so. And a resurgence is not actually defined as a long term thing, it is merely the coming to the fore of something. And Sawyer's pure self did come to the fore in the case of saving Claire.

I didnt explain myself very well here. What I meant was he shouldnt just pick and choose when he chooses to be good. Yes what he did was very heroic and he does deserve a lot of credit for that I agree. But I dont like it being called a transformation when he needs to be it on a consitent basis.

I condemned Sawyer for the murder of a surrendered Tom, please get the facts straight. And Sawyer fans condemned the murder of Tom (I don't think anyone didn't), whereas I have seen nobody point out that Ben could have done the exact same thing to a surrendered man last episode. Now Ben may not have killed him directly, but he did leave him in the middle of the Sahara Desert where I've heard it can get a bit warm.

To be fair there have been a lot of other things to discuss in that episode - I dont see you making any threads on it either JB

Also Tom and Sawyer had quite a lot of history. Sawyer obviously cared quite alot for Walt ("I was trying to save your damn kid") and Tom, as leader of the Others on that boat, was in charge of taking him. Now we as viewers know Ben ordered it, but from Sawyer's point of view Tom was in charge. Sawyer has also been shot twice at the hands of Tom's men, again which Sawyer sees as orders from Tom. Sawyer obviously has a deep hate for the suffering of children; I know don't we all but we must remember the suffering Sawyer went through as a child. So when he sees another child being harmed or emotionally harmed (Walt) he doesn't take kindly to it. The emotions again, overpour.

I think we'll let Walt be the judge of that one

But you do make a good point. But this time Sawyer was in a clearer thinking situation - it wasnt the guy who he blames for ruining his life etc. And Cooper was still on his mind, and I say, if he still felt bad about it, why did he execute another man? Surely he could have remembered how he felt the last time he executed a man, how bad that felt? That would have been real growth.

Do you know what esn, if only you did that for Locke then I may respect you for that opinion. You claim you woul but if you'd looked closer you'd have seen that for 4 damn seasons Locke has been praised as a hero when he commits heinous acts. He still is now. Boone - Locke was defended. Mikhail I - Barely anything, only really from Locke haters. The knife given to Sayid - not a squeak. Naomi - diddly squat. Maybe you should practice what you preach esn

Ok dont crictise me on that - I have tried to crictise him and anyone else when I have had the time to do so - I am a very busy man you know what with uni and everything it isnt easy to get around as much I would like, so I do feel a bit annoyed at that comment JB.

And Ill think you'll find I cricitised him strongly over the whole Cooper fiasco. And I have attacked very strongly Ben for his actions RE the genocide has well. Not to mention that "put a grenade in it thread" - aimed at Locke, and crictising Locke. SO when I have had the chance to, and when the chance has presented its self, I have practised what I preach JB.

But Ill be sure to do so in the future JB, count on it, you know, just to keep you happy

[esn]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

*Takes a minute to gander at that smilie*

Look, as JB has pointed out, nobody was particularly happy about what happened between Tom and Sawyer. It was disappointing. However, the only thing I can put it down to is the whole Walt thing. Sawyer blames Tom for his shooting and what happened to Walt and so he shot him in revenge. It's a bad emotion but we all have it and can't control how we react because of it.

No-ones saying that they were.

The point is, like I said to JB, that if he really did feel bad about killing Cooper, and remembering what he did to Cooper, how it made him feel, then that emotion of guilt should have overridden the disire for revenge.

But aren't we humans classed as an animal? A dog can choose whether it wants to fight or run away so what separates humans from animals? Apart from the whole talking thing. I'm sorry hun, but I don't think I agree with this. Sawyer is human through and through and I believe that is why he acted the way he did. Human's are powered by instinct and emotion and that is what led him to do what he did. And I don't think he can be classed as evil because an evil person does something through deep planning and they are cold and calculated. Sawyer is not.

Im not sure how I can explain it you any more Beachy Im sorry love.
What makes us human is our intellegance, and our strong compassion
for each other. Even for somone as bad as Cooper was. Even with emotions as strong as Sawyers, he should have had the compassion and intellegance at that point to see that was worng and stopped.

And fair enough on the whole evil thing.

But I think they are! As you've pointed out, Sawyer isn't the best of people and so what's wrong with us celebrating his good deed?

And sure, I like to praise him but I like to keep it on what I hope is an even level. Obviously I have some swooning fan girl moments, lol.

Nothing worng with celebrating it, just with an air of caution. Othwise you'll be fine

Even when we don't agree?

Especially when we dont agree

[esn]

Can I just say, I do think Sawyers a great character and I do like him for saving Claire and risking his life and I do think its brilliant - I dont want you all to think that I hate him or anything like that

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by esn

Well you say potatoe...

I do see your point that emotions can overpower us. But when it comes to somthing like this, surely Sawyer should have been able to controll himself here? Even in raw emotion, there is still a human being inside of us, and ultimately in control.

Agree to disagree on this one.

I don't put an 'e' on the end...

I'm sorry but how should he? That letter was the last emblem of a childhood lost for Sawyer, a symbol of the suffering that had haunted him for decades. All the emotion that an eight year old possessed in his little body was poured into that letter. And that letter was going to be given to the man that was the direct cause of the suffering. Sawyer's very heart was in that letter. And so when Cooper ripped it up and threw it away like yesterday's trash then the emotion that would have coursed through Sawyer would have been overwhelming. And emotion that strong does strange things to a man and erases all control.

Guess so.

I didnt explain myself very well here. What I meant was he shouldnt just pick and choose when he chooses to be good. Yes what he did was very heroic and he does deserve a lot of credit for that I agree. But I dont like it being called a transformation when he needs to be it on a consitent basis.

I don't believe he does. As someone who has followed Sawyer very closely throughout the show I'm a firm believer that he does not 'pick and choose' when he wants to be good. Good is always down there, he is a good man, but all the times when he does show a 'bad' (hate that word) side it is because of the inner demons that have plagued him for years surfacing. Let us not forget that this is a man that passionately hated himself and wanted to be hated when he first arrived. And so the bad that he did was for the ultimate goal of making himself suffer. Eventually there was a point, for me personally it was Left Behind, where he realised that he could conquer those demons and so managed to push them down, and the real Sawyer started to surface. This Sawyer was the one we saw in TSOTTC.

However I do agree that transformation is an inappropriate term. As I saw I'd call it a resurgence.

To be fair there have been a lot of other things to discuss in that episode - I dont see you making any threads on it either JB

I'm not one to make threads on Lost issues. If there's a point that can't be made in a pot, in context, it shouldn't be made.

I think we'll let Walt be the judge of that one

But you do make a good point. But this time Sawyer was in a clearer thinking situation - it wasnt the guy who he blames for ruining his life etc. And Cooper was still on his mind, and I say, if he still felt bad about it, why did he execute another man? Surely he could have remembered how he felt the last time he executed a man, how bad that felt? That would have been real growth.

Erm, how and why? We're not debating whether Walt did suffer at the hands of the Others, which by the look of Walt in 3 Minutes (panicked about going back in the room) he did, but whether Sawyer saw it as another kid's life being ruined. And what he saw was Walt being taken away from his father (memories of Sawyer being taken from his) and screaming his fathers name(which Sawyer more than likely did as the blood ran down his fathers face).

But I'm not defending the execution of Tom. It was wrong. He'd surrendered, and executing a man that has surrendered is foolish. Howevr I'm stating what could have been running through Sawyer's head rather than "Time for a bad action, let's kill this guy".

Ok dont crictise me on that - I have tried to crictise him and anyone else when I have had the time to do so - I am a very busy man you know what with uni and everything it isnt easy to get around as much I would like, so I do feel a bit annoyed at that comment JB.

And Ill think you'll find I cricitised him strongly over the whole Cooper fiasco. And I have attacked very strongly Ben for his actions RE the genocide has well. Not to mention that "put a grenade in it thread" - aimed at Locke, and crictising Locke. SO when I have had the chance to, and when the chance has presented its self, I have practised what I preach JB.

But Ill be sure to do so in the future JB, count on it, you know, just to keep you happy

Relax. It wasn't a direct criticism of you, more of the overlook that Locke has received for all his actions throughout four seasons. Honestly if Sawyer, Sayid or Kate did the things that Locke has done (knifing Naomi for example) then people would be screaming bloody murder (which infact it would be ). It just annoys me the amount that Locke gets away with and then you call Sawyer fans as claiming he's the new messiah and overlooking his more questionable actions. Doesn't make sense to me I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Beachy

JB, I really don't know what I'd do without you. I agree with everything that you have said .

No worries B, if we didn't stick up for him and our beliefs we'd be swallowed by Locke fans.

[esn]

Originally Posted by JB Sawyer

I don't put an 'e' on the end...

Dyslexic

I'm sorry but how should he? That letter was the last emblem of a childhood lost for Sawyer, a symbol of the suffering that had haunted him for decades. All the emotion that an eight year old possessed in his little body was poured into that letter. And that letter was going to be given to the man that was the direct cause of the suffering. Sawyer's very heart was in that letter. And so when Cooper ripped it up and threw it away like yesterday's trash then the emotion that would have coursed through Sawyer would have been overwhelming. And emotion that strong does strange things to a man and erases all control.

I do conceed that it must have been painful for Sawyer, and that his heart was in that letter. But at the same time ultimately, Sawyer is responsible for his actions, emotions or no emotions. Yes Cooper may have caused those emotions to errupt, but Sawyer perpertrated the crime and ultimately is responsable. Whilst I havent killed a man and I cant know what it is like, and I wouldnt pretend to be Sawyer. However I do know what it is like to let emotion get the better of you and have no controll. But the bully that I beat up in year 8 isnt responsible for having the living snot beaten out of him by yours turely, I was, and it is somthing that I regret my entire life, that I allowed my emotions do that, and because of that, I have always belived that one should always be able to controll emotions that cause such destruction. Yes Sawyers emotions were 100x stronger, but so was the crime he committed.

I don't believe he does. As someone who has followed Sawyer very closely throughout the show I'm a firm believer that he does not 'pick and choose' when he wants to be good. Good is always down there, he is a good man, but all the times when he does show a 'bad' (hate that word) side it is because of the inner demons that have plagued him for years surfacing. Let us not forget that this is a man that passionately hated himself and wanted to be hated when he first arrived. And so the bad that he did was for the ultimate goal of making himself suffer. Eventually there was a point, for me personally it was Left Behind, where he realised that he could conquer those demons and so managed to push them down, and the real Sawyer started to surface. This Sawyer was the one we saw in TSOTTC.

However I do agree that transformation is an inappropriate term. As I saw I'd call it a resurgence.

Ok, now I see your point here, kind of. But Sawyer is guilty of picking and choosing when to be good - when he knows that he can do it all along. Hopefully, this will see Sawyer proove that the good Sawyer is the real Sawyer, but on evidence, the real self is the bad Sawyer.

I'm not one to make threads on Lost issues. If there's a point that can't be made in a pot, in context, it shouldn't be made.

Well dont have a go at me for not making lost threads

Erm, how and why? We're not debating whether Walt did suffer at the hands of the Others, which by the look of Walt in 3 Minutes (panicked about going back in the room) he did, but whether Sawyer saw it as another kid's life being ruined. And what he saw was Walt being taken away from his father (memories of Sawyer being taken from his) and screaming his fathers name(which Sawyer more than likely did as the blood ran down his fathers face).

Well Walt wasnt pleased that Micheal killed Libby and Ana Lucia to get him back, so Id hate to think was hed think of Sawyer for killing a man for vengance sake. (christ Im turning into Roco ) You do make a good point though, and yes I accept that Sawyer must have been angry by that.

But I'm not defending the execution of Tom. It was wrong. He'd surrendered, and executing a man that has surrendered is foolish. Howevr I'm stating what could have been running through Sawyer's head rather than "Time for a bad action, let's kill this guy".

Never said you were. But IMO, it partially negates the view that Sawyer felt bad for what he did to Cooper. Again I ask, surely the emotion of guilt of what he did just a few days ago, should negate the feeling of anger for what Tom did to Walt.

Relax. It wasn't a direct criticism of you, more of the overlook that Locke has received for all his actions throughout four seasons. Honestly if Sawyer, Sayid or Kate did the things that Locke has done (knifing Naomi for example) then people would be screaming bloody murder (which infact it would be ). It just annoys me the amount that Locke gets away with and then you call Sawyer fans as claiming he's the new messiah and overlooking his more questionable actions. Doesn't make sense to me I'm afraid.

Fair enough

and you do have a point, and it does annoy me also. I will make efforts to rectify the issue with you in the future JB

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

I don't think so. I never saw Pickett do anything that was deemed as "good" or "heroic" apart from loving his wife (was Colleen his wife?) and this is coming from a fan of Pickett.

He does have a lot of work to do, but I think that he's come a long, long way from season one Sawyer. He and Hurley, as JB has pointed out, have been friends for a long time now and the teasing of Hurley has stopped. It's always in a friendly manner now.

Yes, but we were only given a 'snapshot' of Pickett..had we only been treated to a 'snapshot' of Sawyer, then he been shown for the racist, homaphobe and quite frankly vile person that he is. Oh, and let's not forget selfish bully

You see, Sawyer has had more time to show us his 'light and shade', if you will..yet even with his recent "heroics", he's been shown to be the same old selfish and brutal Sawyer. Let's not forget, this is a man who wanted to do a "Keamy" a few hours ago - this is a man who wanted to Execute a man in front of his watching daughter because he couldn't take a dose of sarcasm! This is a man who DID do a Keamy a few days ago, when he brutally executed Tom after the man had surrendered.

I submit that Sawyer is infact worse than Keamy, since at least Keamy offered a man the opportunity to 'surrender' - did Sawyer accept Tom's surrender? Hell no..

I just think we need a lil perspective here - sawyer did some good things in this episode, but he is still one of Lost's biggests wretches, if not the biggest (and i include Keamy in that, after some thought about Sawyer's crimes).

I disagree Beachington's - Sawyer and Hugo haven't been friends for a long time (imo) - for one thing, it was only about 4 weeks ago that Hugo (of all people) resorted to lashing out against Sawyer, because he was traumatised by his constant bullying and belittling. It wasn't so long ago that Sawyer executed a treefrog right in front of Hugo, just because he could..just because he wanted to bully him. Sorry, but i don't call a friend someone who that person names and bully's them. It's like Sawyer is exacting one rule for himself and one for everyone else - i.e it's ok if he bully's Hugo, but heaven forbid anyone lay a hand on his curly little head I don't believe that Sawyer has that right, i don't believe he has the right to change his colours as often as he changes his nicknames.

Also, i really disagree that his teasing of Hugo is now "friendly" - there is nothing friendly about calling someone 'tub of lard' and things which he knows is associated with Hugo's fragile self-image. Sawyer knows peoples weakness and he attacks them. Wearing a smile and racially abusing someone isn't acceptable, so why is this any different. Just because Hugo's too weak to tell him to stop, doesn't make it right. Imagine if someone kept abusing you - would you consider that person a 'friend'?

Clearly we disagree here, but i think these points need to be addressed and considered before we falsely offer praise to ford..

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by JB Sawyer

But our humanity is our emotions esn, why can't you see that? It's what separates us from robots - we have emotions. Emotions govern our very being. If you had no emotions, no will in the world would enable you to do anything. Emotions are our human side.

Well, robots can be programmed with emotions these days

Surely what makes us distinctly human is our ability to decide..to choose..freewill..?