The transformation of James Sawyer Ford

[esn]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

I don't think any of us are trying to make a saint out of a sinner. We're simply praising him for finally doing the right thing for a change And I don't really expect him to balance it out at all. Murder is a hard thing to get past. Kate's murder of her father, Ana Lucia's murder of Jason, Sun's murder of Colleen, Hurley's murder of that guy, Ben's purge, Sayid's murders....everyone on the island has sinned but people seem a lot more willing to forget what other people have done rather than Sawyer . And just because he said he was doing it for himself doesn't mean he can't change his mind! He saw the horror and fear on Ben's face, which made him realise that he couldn't simply leave his friends behind. He saved them because it was the right thing to do .

Beachy, Im not going to tell you again, Hurley didnt murder that guy - and Suns is also debatable But lets not go down there shall we

I cant speak for other people, but I dont forget, and in the same way that Kate gets my full commedemnation for her crimes, so does Sawyer. But it just seems to me, because Sawyer is a popular character, that there is more excusing of his actions (witness people excusing him killing Cooper, and then blaming Ben and Locke) then there is with everyone else, and along the same lines, he gets more prase when he does, as you put it, the right thing for a change. All I am saying, is yes he does deserve credit, but lets wait on this one and see where it leads us before we all start worshipping him.

I'm certainly not going on parade . But what Sawyer did was selfless. He put his own life in danger to rescue Claire and attempt to rescue others and then lead his friends, and a stranger, back to the beach. We've seen Sawyer help people he likes before but to help someone he doesn't know - I think this shows a whole different side to Sawyer. You're very right - he could revert back to old Sawyer but that's just the same way Ben could suddenly decide to "purge" the Losties, or Sayid could start torturing again. If we don't give him a chance to prove himself how will he ever change?

See my above comments. And yes, what he did was wonderful, but it does seem that people are over celebrating this a tad here. Again, it was the right thing to do here, yes it took bravery but before we start making him out to be a good guy again because of it, lets remember the path that took him here

Erm we are always giving him that chance - its him that needs to prove it, not us (or rather, his fellow islanders ) and continue that work before we can hearld a new Sawyer

I'm quite happy to call it a transformation. In that episode his character transformed into the good Sawyer or perhaps James that's buried deep down inside. It doesn't necessarily mean he'll stay that way but for a short time he transformed into the good guy he can be.

Id call it a fluke, because, it was just one episode. He needs to do it on a regular basis for me to call it a transformation.

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by esn

Beachy, Im not going to tell you again, Hurley didnt murder that guy - and Suns is also debatable But lets not go down there shall we

*Stresses a tad* But they were! Lives were took deliberately and that makes it either murder or euthanasia and in both these cases I'd say murder! In Hurley's case I would say if was murder-in-self-defense because he was saving his friends, but Colleen had done nothing but me nice to Sun and she still lost her life. I'm sorry, but if we're going to call Kate and Sawyer for killing those others in the season two finale, which imo, was self defense, well then we can call Hurley and Sun too.

I cant speak for other people, but I dont forget, and in the same way that Kate gets my full commedemnation for her crimes, so does Sawyer. But it just seems to me, because Sawyer is a popular character, that there is more excusing of his actions (witness people excusing him killing Cooper, and then blaming Ben and Locke) then there is with everyone else, and along the same lines, he gets more prase when he does, as you put it, the right thing for a change. All I am saying, is yes he does deserve credit, but lets wait on this one and see where it leads us before we all start worshipping him.

Just Kate and Sawyer? What about every other character (pretty much everyone) who had murdered or sinned? I've never excused his actions. I've always said I hate him when he hurts/kills/is a jerk because I want him to be that good guy. What I have done, however, is given reasons why I think he might have acted in such a way. Such with Cooper, and I still blame Locke for it, but I blame Cooper the most. Sawyer would not have killed Cooper if Locke had not told him he was there. Sawyer would not have murdered Cooper if Cooper hadn't bullied Sawyer and mocked his deceased mother. This is one I feel strongly about. Sawyer was a child when his parents died, and yes murdering Cooper was wrong, but I can understand why he did it. It's just heartbreaking. But you have to understand sweets, Sawyer is always doing the wrong thing that when he does the right thing we praise him because we want to see him continue down this path It's like when Jack does the wrong thing - it's such a change that ost people condem him. Sorry Jack

See my above comments. And yes, what he did was wonderful, but it does seem that people are over celebrating this a tad here. Again, it was the right thing to do here, yes it took bravery but before we start making him out to be a good guy again because of it, lets remember the path that took him here

But it almost seems like you're suggesting we shouldn't praise him because he's such a bad man he doesn't deserve any praise when he does the right thing? I just can't ignore the fact that he was a hero because of some of the stuff he's done in the past.

Erm we are always giving him that chance - its him that needs to prove it, not us (or rather, his fellow islanders ) and continue that work before we can hearld a new Sawyer

(Meh, I think of myself as an islander these days anyways ) But if we just gave him a bit more of a chance? Like instead of bringing up his past saying "Well that was a nice change, I hope he can continue it..."

Id call it a fluke, because, it was just one episode. He needs to do it on a regular basis for me to call it a transformation.

But there are so many examples of his bravery and nice guy Sawyer across the four seasons that I'd say it's just another side to him. Think of him like a magical creature When the moon is full he transforms into a jerk, when it's not he transforms back into an ok guy

[esn]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

*Stresses a tad* But they were! Lives were took deliberately and that makes it either murder or euthanasia and in both these cases I'd say murder! In Hurley's case I would say if was murder-in-self-defense because he was saving his friends, but Colleen had done nothing but me nice to Sun and she still lost her life. I'm sorry, but if we're going to call Kate and Sawyer for killing those others in the season two finale, which imo, was self defense, well then we can call Hurley and Sun too.

I actually dont have a problem with those self defence killings in s2 (as I would put it) and Sun - I actually cant remember that very well LOL

Just Kate and Sawyer? What about every other character (pretty much everyone) who had murdered or sinned? I've never excused his actions. I've always said I hate him when he hurts/kills/is a jerk because I want him to be that good guy. What I have done, however, is given reasons why I think he might have acted in such a way. Such with Cooper, and I still blame Locke for it, but I blame Cooper the most. Sawyer would not have killed Cooper if Locke had not told him he was there. Sawyer would not have murdered Cooper if Cooper hadn't bullied Sawyer and mocked his deceased mother. This is one I feel strongly about. Sawyer was a child when his parents died, and yes murdering Cooper was wrong, but I can understand why he did it. It's just heartbreaking. But you have to understand sweets, Sawyer is always doing the wrong thing that when he does the right thing we praise him because we want to see him continue down this path It's like when Jack does the wrong thing - it's such a change that ost people condem him. Sorry Jack

I was using Kate and Sawyer as an example. Of course other characters get my comdemnation - Ben, Locke, Sayid etc.
Well isnt that what you are doing there Beachy in effect? Removing responsablity for what he did - a terrible act and placing it at Cooper - surely he should have been stronger. Yes the pain of losing a parent is unimaginable but taking the ulitmate revenge like that, is just plane worng. I would have been more impressed had he just sat down and waited it out - Locke would have had to open the door eventually or he himself would have been a murderer. Yes I know how hard it is not to snap when someone you dislike (in Sawyers case hate) it winding you up, and in that situation, it must have been particulary difficult but thats what seperates us from the beasts at the end of the day
And Im not a fan of the OTT crictism that Jack gets for doing the slightest thing worng either Becayy

But it almost seems like you're suggesting we shouldn't praise him because he's such a bad man he doesn't deserve any praise when he does the right thing? I just can't ignore the fact that he was a hero because of some of the stuff he's done in the past.

Im not saying that - he does deserve praise, just not on the level of hero worship that it is at the moment. Would you be celebrating as much if, say Ben or Kate had done that? I wouldnt and its the same for Sawyer

(Meh, I think of myself as an islander these days anyways ) But if we just gave him a bit more of a chance? Like instead of bringing up his past saying "Well that was a nice change, I hope he can continue it..."

I think we all do

And I do hope he continues it Beachy, and perhaps I should be a little more positive. Just when looking to Sawyers future, its not easy to for one to forget the past.

But there are so many examples of his bravery and nice guy Sawyer across the four seasons that I'd say it's just another side to him. Think of him like a magical creature When the moon is full he transforms into a jerk, when it's not he transforms back into an ok guy

Not the true bravery that we saw in the latest episode. And most of the time (and I like Sawyer) he is a jerk. It needs to become more the norm rather than the execption

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by esn

I actually dont have a problem with those self defence killings in s2 (as I would put it) and Sun - I actually cant remember that very well LOL

I do. I'm not one for death, but I think in self-defense it's not as evil as it is if you simply choose to murder someone. Well I hate Sun anyways, so if I explain it I'll be biased so we'll just leave Sun. For now .

I was using Kate and Sawyer as an example. Of course other characters get my comdemnation - Ben, Locke, Sayid etc.
Well isnt that what you are doing there Beachy in effect? Removing responsablity for what he did - a terrible act and placing it at Cooper - surely he should have been stronger. Yes the pain of losing a parent is unimaginable but taking the ulitmate revenge like that, is just plane worng.

It's hard to explain. I don't feel I'm removing the responsability at all. I wanted so much for him not to hurt Cooper, so much for him to take the high ground. But Cooper wasn't even remorseful! He mocked Sawyer for his parent's death, ripped up the letter, ripped up Sawyer's childhood. I can't imagine how hard that must have been for him. I think if Cooper had simply said "Sorry" or had at least acted shocked Sawyer wouldn't have acted in the way he did. But Cooper was evil and is hopefully getting the punishment he deserves now. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. Sawyer on the other hand was remorseful. He cried and immediately after Cooper's death he threw up. It shows how deeply affected he was by the actions he had committed

I would have been more impressed had he just sat down and waited it out - Locke would have had to open the door eventually or he himself would have been a murderer. Yes I know how hard it is not to snap when someone you dislike (in Sawyers case hate) it winding you up, and in that situation, it must have been particulary difficult but thats what seperates us from the beasts at the end of the day

I don't think it's fair to imply Sawyer is a beast at all. A beast is someone who I would class is evil through and through, someone that shows no remorse for their actions. Sawyer has shown remorse. And Sawyer has shown that he can be a good guy. He's not evil. He's just...his childhood screwed him up, Cooper screwed his family over - and for Cooper to rod Sawyer of 30years of his life and not even be sorry - I think he's the beast. Not Sawyer.

And Im not a fan of the OTT crictism that Jack gets for doing the slightest thing worng either Becayy

No, me either. Jack gets a rough ride on this forum

Im not saying that - he does deserve praise, just not on the level of hero worship that it is at the moment. Would you be celebrating as much if, say Ben or Kate had done that? I wouldnt and its the same for Sawyer

I don't personally think it's hero worship. He's done nothing that nobody else would have done - but it's the fact that Mr Everyman-For-Himself was suddenly protecting those around him! I think that's all that we're suggesting - he played the hero for once, and it's nice to see. Actually, I'd be pleasently surprised if Kate was a hero, and with Ben I was very impressed that he saved Sawyer and Co. and also very heartbroken for him and the loss of his daughter. I think, however, with Locke, unless he was to save somebody's life, I wouldn't praise him at all

I think we all do

And I do hope he continues it Beachy, and perhaps I should be a little more positive. Just when looking to Sawyers future, its not easy to for one to forget the past.

You're probably right there

No, everyone's entitled to feel how they want to feel but I just think that we should be hopeful rather than think about how he could go back to Bad Sawyer. That's all

Not the true bravery that we saw in the latest episode. And most of the time (and I like Sawyer) he is a jerk. It needs to become more the norm rather than the execption

No, maybe not to that extent, but he's risked his life for other people before. I think from mid season three onwards not being a jerk has been more of a norm for Sawyer. But we'll see, and personally, I'm hopeful

[esn]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

I do. I'm not one for death, but I think in self-defense it's not as evil as it is if you simply choose to murder someone. Well I hate Sun anyways, so if I explain it I'll be biased so we'll just leave Sun. For now .

Ok I do have a problem with killing people - but if its done in self defence - with no other alternative - then its just about acceptable - if that makes sense

it's hard to explain. I don't feel I'm removing the responsability at all. I wanted so much for him not to hurt Cooper, so much for him to take the high ground. But Cooper wasn't even remorseful! He mocked Sawyer for his parent's death, ripped up the letter, ripped up Sawyer's childhood. I can't imagine how hard that must have been for him. I think if Cooper had simply said "Sorry" or had at least acted shocked Sawyer wouldn't have acted in the way he did. But Cooper was evil and is hopefully getting the punishment he deserves now. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. Sawyer on the other hand was remorseful. He cried and immediately after Cooper's death he threw up. It shows how deeply affected he was by the actions he had committed

But as Roco said, people cry and throw up after winning atheltic events
- it could have been down to the emotion of relase rather than remorse for his actions. If he had have truley felt remorsful, he wouldnt have done it, or at least, shown his emotions a bit more. IMO.

I don't think it's fair to imply Sawyer is a beast at all. A beast is someone who I would class is evil through and through, someone that shows no remorse for their actions. Sawyer has shown remorse. And Sawyer has shown that he can be a good guy. He's not evil. He's just...his childhood screwed him up, Cooper screwed his family over - and for Cooper to rod Sawyer of 30years of his life and not even be sorry - I think he's the beast. Not Sawyer.

You miss understand me Beachy. I wasnt calling Sawyer a beast directly, just his actions were beast like. It was an anology. Primal instinct, that sort of thing. What I meant was, its the ablity to rise above the urge to beat the living snot out of somone that keeps us human. Doing so doesnt make us evil, but it does make us unhuman. Though Cooper was evil though

No, me either. Jack gets a rough ride on this forum

Good we agree on somthing

I don't personally think it's hero worship. He's done nothing that nobody else would have done - but it's the fact that Mr Everyman-For-Himself was suddenly protecting those around him! I think that's all that we're suggesting - he played the hero for once, and it's nice to see. Actually, I'd be pleasently surprised if Kate was a hero, and with Ben I was very impressed that he saved Sawyer and Co. and also very heartbroken for him and the loss of his daughter. I think, however, with Locke, unless he was to save somebody's life, I wouldn't praise him at all

See I think it is, at least in part. In the same way that those who hate him find any reason to pick fault and write pages and pages on how bad he is, those who love him will jump on any oppurtunity to, in a forum sense, smother him with kisses, when in both cases they wouldnt do the same for another character.

You're probably right there

Tell me about it

No, everyone's entitled to feel how they want to feel but I just think that we should be hopeful rather than think about how he could go back to Bad Sawyer. That's all



No, maybe not to that extent, but he's risked his life for other people before. I think from mid season three onwards not being a jerk has been more of a norm for Sawyer. But we'll see, and personally, I'm hopeful

Lets just say underneath this soft exterior, I am rather cynical when it comes to this sort of thing. Sorry but thats the way I am

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by esn

Ok I do have a problem with killing people - but if its done in self defence - with no other alternative - then its just about acceptable - if that makes sense

Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

But as Roco said, people cry and throw up after winning atheltic events
- it could have been down to the emotion of relase rather than remorse for his actions. If he had have truley felt remorsful, he wouldnt have done it, or at least, shown his emotions a bit more. IMO.

Oh, Roco knows how I feel about this . We spent many, many hours...or was it days?...debating Sawyer and Cooper (*Waves at Roco* .) But this isn't Roco, it's you But seriously? I don't see the connection at all. I believe Sawyer acted in that way because those whole 30years he'd spent looking for Cooper were over. And personally, I think the child inside of him was looking for Cooper to say sorry, but the jerk didn't and that's why I think he cried. He did show his emotions! For episodes afterwards he wasn't the same guy. He was quiet and sad and just not the Sawyer we knew. The whole thing with Cooper has altered him greatly imo.

You miss understand me Beachy. I wasnt calling Sawyer a beast directly, just his actions were beast like. It was an anology. Primal instinct, that sort of thing. What I meant was, its the ablity to rise above the urge to beat the living snot out of somone that keeps us human. Doing so doesnt make us evil, but it does make us unhuman. Though Cooper was evil though

Isn't that the same thing And I meant that you were suggesting that Sawyer was a beast, not that you neccessarily called him one. I don't understand - so Sawyer's not human and Cooper's evil? Can you maybe explain that a little more for me?

Good we agree on somthing

I like Jack, lol.

See I think it is, at least in part. In the same way that those who hate him find any reason to pick fault and write pages and pages on how bad he is, those who love him will jump on any oppurtunity to, in a forum sense, smother him with kisses, when in both cases they wouldnt do the same for another character.

Maybe in general. But I've jumped up to defend Jack, Jules, Sayid....when they've done something good, I've praised them and others for it. And it really, really saddens me that people are picking fault at him just because he tried to do the right thing. I don't get that. And I'm not keen on this smother him in kisses thing I praise him when he's good and tell him off when he's bad, lol.

Tell me about it

Lets just say underneath this soft exterior, I am rather cynical when it comes to this sort of thing. Sorry but thats the way I am

Cynical is a good thing. And I'm very protective too, so we may be here for a while

[D-Roc]

All we need now is for Pickett to call someone "sweetheart" and he'd be forgiven by the fan community for all his 'sins'.

I think Sawyer still has much work to do - you can't abuse/torment people one minute and the next act as if you're their best friend. Hypocritical (on Sawyer's part)..much?

[esn]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

Good

Oh, Roco knows how I feel about this . We spent many, many hours...or was it days?...debating Sawyer and Cooper (*Waves at Roco* .) But this isn't Roco, it's you But seriously? I don't see the connection at all. I believe Sawyer acted in that way because those whole 30years he'd spent looking for Cooper were over. And personally, I think the child inside of him was looking for Cooper to say sorry, but the jerk didn't and that's why I think he cried. He did show his emotions! For episodes afterwards he wasn't the same guy. He was quiet and sad and just not the Sawyer we knew. The whole thing with Cooper has altered him greatly imo.

I know this is me, and I find it scary that Im agreeing a lot with Roco these days (compared to when we were at channel 4) . But I belive that if Sawyer were truley sorry, and regretted what he did, why did he execute Tom in revenge, who didnt nearly have the same level of history? Sorry but cold blooded murder like that can never be understood, and as humans we should rise above that sort of thing IMO

Isn't that the same thing And I meant that you were suggesting that Sawyer was a beast, not that you neccessarily called him one. I don't understand - so Sawyer's not human and Cooper's evil? Can you maybe explain that a little more for me?

No its not the same thing. Christ Im crap at this um how do I explain??? Cooper is evil - yes that is true. Now put him to one side for a moment. When I say beast, I mean animal, not somone like Jack the Ripper, who was an evil beast. And Im not even calling Sawyer an animal, because an animal is wild and out of control, but what he did was animal like, it went behoynd human instinct and into animal instinct - to kill. Its the ablity to not to kill someone because they call you big nose, or they steal your chair that makes humans human. In a sense, Sawyer lost his humanity in that moment, but wasnt pure evil (though he was pretty close to it)

Maybe in general. But I've jumped up to defend Jack, Jules, Sayid....when they've done something good, I've praised them and others for it. And it really, really saddens me that people are picking fault at him just because he tried to do the right thing. I don't get that. And I'm not keen on this smother him in kisses thing I praise him when he's good and tell him off when he's bad, lol.

Oh Ive tried to do that as well - but I like to keep it in proportion. I just felt that this congratulations of Sawyer wasnt being kept in proportion to the rest of his character.

And I would have thought that you would have been Beachy

Cynical is a good thing. And I'm very protective too, so we may be here for a while

I think so too

(but I have missed conversing with you though)