Did Ben bring flight 815 to island?

[Andy9283]

For me, this is 1 massive question that was raised this episode, or raised again, as im sure many have suspected this.
The first big hint was when Goodwins wife (What was her name again?) told Juliet Ben will be angry. Juliet replies, 'What wud he do'. Immediately cutting to scene of 815 breaking up.
Not to mention he was not at all surprised or excited that a spinal surgeon was on board, and he had a major back problem.
I also expect Ben/Jacob/The big cheese wanted a pregneat women on there so they cud see if 'the curse' effects babies concived off island.

[Reed]

I thought about this to when that scene ended. Regarding not being excited at the news of a spinal surgeon being on board, I think Ben had alot on his mind as far as Jules goes. Though perhaps the focal point was Ben sending Pickett off to be "killed", while we are also LED to believe the plane is Ben's doing too.

His wife was called Harper I think.

[esn]

It is an idea.

But I would question if Ben has that much influence to pull off such a trick of not only having a plane crash, but also make sure that the one guy he needs to save him, Jack surivive, along with Claire on board. I do think he showed genuine surprise of the plane crashing in the flashbacks, and I recall him saying to Jack about a spinal surgeron falling out of the sky three days after he found out that he had cancer (heck of a short period of time to organise a plane crash) has proof of God that he regarded it has somthing unexpected, but none the less, an opputunity. Although you can never be sure with Ben.

That said, I do belive that somone is behind them all being on the island, and I do belive that somone intended that plane to crash there, just not Ben

[D-Roc]

The back and forth hints over who is actually responsible for 815 coming to the island is just amazing - the producers have done a great job in masking and then de-masking possibilities.

I certainly believe that it's possible that Ben brought them to the island - as mentioned, there is some evidence in this episode such as Ben's casual response at a spinal surgeon being on the plane when he should be excited.

However I think that i will stick with my long-held belief that 'the island' brought them to the island. Whist Ben can probably tap into and use the island's 'magic box' to make the impossible happen, I would like to think that the island itself sought the "help" it needed.

Although I would also argue that fate is part of this arrival - the island seems able to 'look' into the future and so it perhaps did what it was "supposed" to do in bringing the 815'ers to the island, or it is trying to "change" what the Universe has already written. Eitherway, I certainly don't subscribe to the 'coincidence' angle..never have and never will.

Facinating facinating stuff and I can't wait to see where they go with it. I just hope they continue to reveal the character as a character in it's own right - that is, seperate from Jacob, who is surely just a pirate who dabbled a bit too much..

But yeah, good shout re: Ben.

[KatesFate]

I agree that they were drawn to the island in some way, but not necessarily by Ben or sheer coincidence. When Juliet says what would Ben do and they flash to the plane breaking up they then show Ben sending Goodwin off to his death, which is the point that the writers were trying to make. Not that Ben made the plane crash.

IMO Ben was not surprised about the plane crashing, not because he caused it to, but because he simply knew it was going to.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by esn

But I would question if Ben has that much influence to pull off such a trick of not only having a plane crash, but also make sure that the one guy he needs to save him, Jack surivive, along with Claire on board. I do think he showed genuine surprise of the plane crashing in the flashbacks, and I recall him saying to Jack about a spinal surgeron falling out of the sky three days after he found out that he had cancer (heck of a short period of time to organise a plane crash)

Well this was not your typical plane crash because NO ONE would be able to survive such an event without death or VERY serious injuries. Ben is the Master Manipulator and I would not base my opinions on his reactions. He would be very suited as a Stock or Betting Advisor because he could lead you to believe anything is true.

His conversation with Jack does not really mean anything because he never once stops playing "mind games" with people, even when he appears to be defeated. Through the workings of Jacob [perhaps?] he KNEW Jack was coming to the Island? This would explain his unsuprise at Juliette informing him one of the Survivors was a Spinal Surgeon. Though granted perhaps he had Romance on his mind to give a hoot about his own well-being.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

However I think that i will stick with my long-held belief that 'the island' brought them to the island. Whist Ben can probably tap into and use the island's 'magic box' to make the impossible happen, I would like to think that the island itself sought the "help" it needed.

Seconded. While I also believe that it is posible for someone to have bought the Survivors to the Island through the Island, e.g. Ben through Jacob. I still do not invest into the Magic Box idea because Cooper was simply brought to the Island imo. However I do like to think that Ben can "make things happen" - somehow.

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Although I would also argue that fate is part of this arrival - the island seems able to 'look' into the future and so it perhaps did what it was "supposed" to do in bringing the 815'ers to the island, or it is trying to "change" what the Universe has already written. Eitherway, I certainly don't subscribe to the 'coincidence' angle..never have and never will.

What if the Island is the Centre/Heart of the World? It looks into the future, creates events and lets them unfold while making changes along the way. All which leads to a different future for the World? But I agree with your paragraph here.

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Facinating facinating stuff and I can't wait to see where they go with it. I just hope they continue to reveal the character as a character in it's own right - that is, seperate from Jacob, who is surely just a pirate who dabbled a bit too much..

That is an interesting perspective, I have never heard that one before. I take it you mean one of the Pirates i.e. Alpert etc? Jacob does things he should not have and ultimately his 'Soul' is trapped by the Island.

Originally Posted by Kates Fate

IMO Ben was not surprised about the plane crashing, not because he caused it to, but because he simply knew it was going to.

Yes that is also very possible and for 'whatever' reason he chose to keep it a secret which I believe is the case because the Others seemed unprepared for the plane crash. More specifically Ethan and Goodwin - it all seemed very immediate and unplanned.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by KatesFate

I agree that they were drawn to the island in some way, but not necessarily by Ben or sheer coincidence. When Juliet says what would Ben do and they flash to the plane breaking up they then show Ben sending Goodwin off to his death, which is the point that the writers were trying to make. Not that Ben made the plane crash.

IMO Ben was not surprised about the plane crashing, not because he caused it to, but because he simply knew it was going to.

Yeah, at the time (Tale of Two Cities) I thought that Ben seemed fairly surprised, but in retrospect he doesn't seem all that surprised I'm thinking that he knew 'something' was going to happen, that the 'magic box' would deliver 'something' to answer his or Jacob's call, but perhaps he didn't know exactly what it would be and exactly when it would happen, because he still appeared to think on his feet somewhat (although granted, sending Eth and Goodwin off on their missions might have been pre-planned on his behalf).

What I've always found facinating is the fact that Jules seems to know what Ben and Jacob are capable of (for example when Ben told her that Jacob would heal her sisters carcinoma, she seemed to believe that he is capable of such far flung wizardry), yet she still believes that she can leave the island etc on her own terms - I guess this relates to the fate vesus freewill thing again, with Jules' favourite book being 'Carrie' (of all books) and Ben not having much time for 'nonsense' such as that..

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Reed

What if the Island is the Centre/Heart of the World? It looks into the future, creates events and lets them unfold while making changes along the way. All which leads to a different future for the World? But I agree with your paragraph here.

Interesting thinking Reed and certainly possible. So (as you suggest) the island could be both the creator AND the corrector of time (and space)? Unfurling paths whilst also correcting paradoxes at the same time - keeping balance and stability with the Universe? One wonders then that perhaps paradoxes themselves can change the future? If the island has to correct 'things that weren't Supposed" to happen (like Jack making that call, perhaps?) then maybe such corrections force slightly different future paths simply due to the nature of the way the future has to relate to the past. Of course course-correction should re-align paths exactly as they would have been before such paradoxes occured, but sometimes there could well be small changes, small deviations from the set-path that has to be accepted, even by the Universe? In saying that one way for the island or the Universe (or whatever the governing body of 'time' is) to negate a paradox of paradox (if you will) is to delete memory - Faraday anyone..?

That is an interesting perspective, I have never heard that one before. I take it you mean one of the Pirates i.e. Alpert etc? Jacob does things he should not have and ultimately his 'Soul' is trapped by the Island.

Oops, made a typo there - I meant: 'the island as a character' - but yes I think that Alpert (and even Jacob) could have been one of the pirates from the Black Rock and that their meddling perhaps resulted in a curse if you will. whilst I do hate using such a word when discussing Lost, I think that it elaborates the possibility that there are somethings that the island will do to protect itself if man dabbles too much - including trapping people in time and space (Alpert? jacob?) and purging people (Dharma) and even demanding sacrifices if it needs/desires..

[D-Roc]

I think it's also useful to look at 'motivations' - ben certain has motives for bring the losties to the island, but at the same time perhaps he didn't know exactly what he was bringing..just that he was summoning 'somthing'..

I still believe that Jacob, or indeed the island (who I class as a seperate entity) have the biggest motives for bringing outside help, if you will.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Interesting thinking Reed and certainly possible. So (as you suggest) the island could be both the creator AND the corrector of time (and space)? Unfurling paths whilst also correcting paradoxes at the same time - keeping balance and stability with the Universe? One wonders then that perhaps paradoxes themselves can change the future? If the island has to correct 'things that weren't Supposed" to happen (like Jack making that call, perhaps?) then maybe such corrections force slightly different future paths simply due to the nature of the way the future has to relate to the past. Of course course-correction should re-align paths exactly as they would have been before such paradoxes occured, but sometime there could well be small changes, small deviations from the set-path that has to be accepted, even by the Universe? In saying that one way for the island or the Universe (or whatever the governing body of 'time' is) to negate a paradox of paradox (if you will) is to delete memory - Faraday anyone..?

Thank you. It has been a while since I have heard of the term "Paradox" - I just looked it up but am a little puzzled by it but I think I understand your use of the word. I take it you mean Course Correcting vs The Island - assuming The Island is 'trying' to change the past/future. I am finding it very hard to understand your paragraph here, which is a compliment btw.

So by Paradoxes you mean events by which the Island is changing things or by which the Survivors did things they were NOT supposed to? I suppose it is possible that a path malfunctions [like a machine] and the Island tries to Course Correct it, or it simply may not like what the path leads to in relation to the World's future.

I agree Course Correcting is supposed to set it the way it is "supposed" to be, i.e. man in red shoes dying - so perhaps the Island is the opposing force? This relates to a theory awhile back in regard to TWO forces - one which swayed Locke in S1.

Not sure if this really responds to your post but it is the best I could achieve What small changes do you mean? How could Faraday delete Time's memory?

Oops, made a typo there - I meant: 'the island as a character' - but yes I think that Alpert (and even Jacob) could have been one of the pirates from the Black Rock and that their meddling perhaps resulted in a curse if you will. whilst I do hate using such a word when discussing Lost, I think that it elaborates the possibility that there are somethings that the island will do to protect itself if man dabbles too much - including trapping people in time and space (Alpert? jacob?) and purging people (Dharma) and even demanding sacrifices if it needs/desires..

I think Alpert definitely was a Pirate and if I recall, Jacob's clothes looked "ragged" so perhaps he was one also. Though if that were the case, why is Ben in contact with him and not Alpert?

Well in regard to the mention of Egypt-Lost in the other thread, Curses could relate here. Or in this case it could be better described as a punishment for Jacob by the Island - "help me". Perhaps the events from The Constant is the Island defending itself?