Ben And The Others

[lost-lover]

Two phrases in this episode made me wonder what Ben's status is in the Others camp. Harper said to Juliet "Ben's exactly where he wants to be." Which, aside from suggesting he's manipulating his hostage situation, shows he's still in contact with at least some of the Others, and thy're taking orders from him. Ben, meanwhile, said to Locke "If my people wanted me out of here they'd have raided this place by now." Notice he says "Wanted me out of here" and not "wanted me back". So is Ben still the Other's leader and ruling things even from his prison, how's he getting messages out?
What do you think Ben's status is in the Other's camp?

[Him]

The 'Island' definitely has a hand in that whole thing, in my opinion.

[lost-lover]

I'm wondering if maybe Ben wants to be there in order to manipulate Locke into doing his will - like when he blew up the sub and killed his own father. Or possibly to collect his documents on Charles Widmore or other secret documents. Confusing.

[Him]

I think Ben's position in Camp Locke might not be as bad as we think it is - he may actually be able to gain a degree of control there, now that Locke's released him from his basement. They're generally more open minded I feel, though they certainly could react negatively at first, and perhaps permanently. The next episode should be interesting.
If what Ben said is true, about the Others not wanting him back, that might be the best place for him (I seriously doubt anyone would hear him out at Camp Jack). However, seeing as the last conversation between Ben and Richard seemed reasonably amicable, I don't think there's a particular reason for.
Manipulation-wise, I think Ben might be trying to manipulate Locke to his will, just so that he can maintain his 'communion' with the Island, seeing as his grip seems to be faltering somewhat. I'm not sure he thought through the shooting-him-dead plan well enough.
In regards to the submarine, I do genuinely think both Locke and Ben wanted the sub blown up, so I've always thought it a bit unfair that Locke's been tarred with this 'he was manipulated into blowing up the sub' brush, especially when it was his mission as soon as he heard Mikhail mention it.

An interesting notion is Ben having some sort of control over 'visions', which is something that could definitely be utilised to manipulate Locke, but I don't really believe that to be the case seeing as there's so much evidence to the contrary.

[lost-lover]

But Locke still wants to find Jacob, so he needs Ben for that. Since Ben's out of the basement I think it shows he's starting to make a breakthrough with Locke.

[Him]

He does want to find Jacob, but I don't think he needs Ben for that. I believe Jacob will 'summon' Locke at the appropriate time.

I'm not completely sure what you mean in the second part of the post (it seems unrelated to the first), but I'll rabble onwards anyway.

Ben was certainly right about his knowledge being his last bargaining chip - given that it seems inevitable that Locke will find out more about the nature of the Island by himself, Ben's use to Locke has been spent somewhat.

Not only that, going by what Richard said, I think Locke's 'purpose' may be in conflict with Ben's wishes, so I'm not sure it's in Locke's interests to keep his word and let Ben free...

[D-Roc]

I've been saying it for weeks - Ben is exactly where he wants to be and is two steps ahead of the game

You're right to raise this question LL - personally I think this episode gave further evidence to somekind of ability. Possibly connected to Jacob, the island..or possibly the island's dead (or all 3).

I think we had a great clue in this episode in the form of the returning whispers. It is often remarked that information travels in the form of 'whispers' (some call them "Chinese Whispers") and I think this could well be the case with Ben and how he is acquiring and receiving info which keeps him 2-steps ahead of everyone else. In my mind the whispers have long been the murmers of the dead (I believe we know this from Boone's "Hi Shan..Dying sucks" and other such past whispers). We also know that there is a perceptual difference between consciousness and it's relation to time - I believe that the dead (or the island if the dead become the island in death?) can see ahead of time.

Is Ben able to tune into this frequency somehow? Is Ben able to hear (or communicate with) 'whispers' when others cannot?

Also, as if to make the point - Miles said 'exactly' the same phrase a few weeks back, when he told Kate "I'm exactly where I want to be". Miles is a 'ghost whisperer'. So I think we have a direct clue as to the nature of Ben's 'knowledge' - basically Ben can communicate wit the dead (as we saw with him seeing his dead mom, who he'd never actually seen in the flesh since he was 1 day old) be it by whispers or manifestations.

That, or time-travel :P ..but perhaps time travel - or the movement of consciousness - is one in the same thing when it comes to communicating with those who reside 'behind the curtain'

As for whether Ben is still leader - most deffo imo. He was giving Locke a bit of kidology, whilst recognising the fact that his leadership is constantly under threat from revolution and rebuke (as Ben knows that Locke knew this due to Alpert whispering in his ear on the hill back in "Brig"). I think Ben's status is under threat, but it also depends on how status is perceived, cos some plans take a while to come together and a position of weakness can be a position of strength before long - I think Ben went into his encounter with Jack in 3.23 with this in mind - a long con, if you will.

What I can't quite figure out for sure is whether Harper is alive or dead..TPTB were clever in never quite making that clear..

[KatesFate]

Astral Projection: The process of the spirit taking temporary breaks from the body that houses it.

Miles states: "I am exactly where I want to be"
Harper says: "Ben is exactly where he wants to be"

Whether you believe in this sort of thing or not, Miles is a psychic. Some psychics believe that we astral project in our dreams at least a couple of times a week whether we realize it or not. There are some psychics and people who are quite good at controlling the ability to do this.

Perhaps that is how Harper, Ben, Walt and others are able to appear instantly and then disappear in the blink of an eye. Electromagnetism is thought to increase these abilities. Ben is quite good at doing this. I think that is how he is able to be one step ahead of everybody at times. He can project to different dimensions as well as different times. The whispers that we hear are people in that other dimension that is temporarily opened up when Harper, Walt, and others project.

Also, it is always raining when we see someone who shouldnt be there. Water is an excellent conductor of electricity which would be very helpful to someone time traveling or astral projecting.

I had posted this yesterday in a different thread, but now think it makes more sense here. Sorry if you see it again elsewhere. I wasnt sure how to delete the previous post.

[Andy9283]

The whole Ben situation reminds me of that film where Christopher Walkin is also a hostage, tied to his chair, but he manages to manipulate his captors from there, and get what he wants.

[lost-lover]

Interesting point about Miles being a "ghost whisperer" I hadn't considered that. (Off topic, but I wonder if he's still biting on the grenade? ). Also about Ben's ability to communicate with the whispers - interesting. Notice how they always - with a few exceptions - appear around the Others? I can't help think that if Ben does have an ability to commune with said whispers/ spirits it would help him rise to be the leader, and hold the position, especially if he can use it to find out information. Maybe to send it as well? It could explain what he said in S3 about being the only one to see Jacob, and Locke being "too limited to see". Maybe Ben can see Jacob because he sees spirits, like his mother? If Locke is indeed too limited to see he could still need Ben. I wonder if Miles would be able to see/hear Jacob?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by KatesFate

Astral Projection: The process of the spirit taking temporary breaks from the body that houses it.

Miles states: "I am exactly where I want to be"
Harper says: "Ben is exactly where he wants to be"

Whether you believe in this sort of thing or not, Miles is a psychic. Some psychics believe that we astral project in our dreams at least a couple of times a week whether we realize it or not. There are some psychics and people who are quite good at controlling the ability to do this.

Perhaps that is how Harper, Ben, Walt and others are able to appear instantly and then disappear in the blink of an eye. Electromagnetism is thought to increase these abilities. Ben is quite good at doing this. I think that is how he is able to be one step ahead of everybody at times. He can project to different dimensions as well as different times. The whispers that we hear are people in that other dimension that is temporarily opened up when Harper, Walt, and others project.

Also, it is always raining when we see someone who shouldnt be there. Water is an excellent conductor of electricity which would be very helpful to someone time traveling or astral projecting.

I had posted this yesterday in a different thread, but now think it makes more sense here. Sorry if you see it again elsewhere. I wasnt sure how to delete the previous post.

Good post and I certainly agree with most of it - although i'm not convinced Miles is a psychic - I think he's more of a medium, as he doesn't appear to 'know' what's going to happen, rather he can tune into the consciousness of spirits...

But yes, I totally agree with the notion that during sleep our consciousness leaves our bodies - which is only our physical constant anyway, our consciousness is what defines us. And when we sleep, we dream - and we know that dreams are a big factor in Lost, perhaps explaining why the island is able to induce such startling dreams (i.e EKo/Locke dream of Yemi, Charlie's dream in F+W etc) - as you said, the island appears to heighten people, thus increasing peoples dreams and desires (Jin getting Sun preggers, Jack fixing Charlie when he was already past dead, Locke walking etc) - a literal 'magic box'.

I agree, the whispers are the murmers of the dead - those who's consciousness now reside 'behind the curtain', if you will. Makes you wonder about the way in which Shannon died - why did those whispers suddenly appear - was Boone angry at her for romancing Sayid? Was Goodwin angry at Ana for killing him?

Interesing mention about the rain - certaintly there is something up with that other than Dharma's weather experiments.

I should add that Ben might not be astral projecting exactly as Walt did - but his skills are in that mould, if you will.

Again, I think it's down to perception - if you can perceive something, then you can believe it, and the 'magic box' delivers.

[KatesFate]

Thanks D. You're probably right about Miles being more of a medium than a psychic, but I think we both agree that you don't have to be either to be able to astral project. You just need to believe you can do it and then learn how to control it.

[Clouds]

Originally Posted by Him

However, seeing as the last conversation between Ben and Richard seemed reasonably amicable, I don't think there's a particular reason for.

Who's Richard?

Originally Posted by D-Roc

What I can't quite figure out for sure is whether Harper is alive or ..

Who's Harper?